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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 18, 2022 2:55:39 GMT
Whether there is a divorce is, by itself, beside the point, I don't see that at all. Take a look at Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery,..." The tribunal directs you to divorce your spouse (if you want your case heard). After the annulment is approved, you then can marry another. What could be clearer ? As far as intrinsic evil is concerned, isn't SS marriage intrinsically evil? then why is the Holy Father Pope Francis writing comments praising the work of the New Ways Ministry, when their work is to promote and support SS marriage? So there has been a development there. Since there have been so many developments in teaching, I don't see it being impossible for there to be a development in the teaching in contraception as is already indicated by Winnipeg. Our Lord empowered His Church to declare certain of the faithful free to remarry, cf. the Pauline and Petrine privileges. And keep in mind that he was referring to the Jewish marriages of the time. The Christian sacrament of matrimony did not exist yet, thus there could be no questions of sacramental validity. And the tribunal does not "direct" you to divorce your spouse, they simply say that they cannot hear a case unless there has been a divorce first, possibly due to the reasons I cited. I'm not sure that is a universal ecclesiastical practice. Pope Francis praising the work of a ministry that supports SS marriage is not "Catholic teaching", much less is it a change in doctrine. He seeks to build bridges and to reconcile people, and there is always the possibility that some of his acts toward that end could be imprudent. This may be a case of that. The teaching on sacramental marriage is clearly stated in the Catechism, and does not entail approval of SS marriage. If he gives the impression of going beyond this, then that is a grave scandal to the faithful. Does New Ways Ministry explicitly state that one of their goals is to promote and encourage SS marriage, or do they simply meet people where they are, not necessarily where they should be in a perfect world? I don't know.
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Post by tth1 on Jan 18, 2022 15:27:13 GMT
Or it could be the way Paul VI was basically forced to file it down to the finest point possible, "ABC is immoral and here is precisely why", with natural law and the intrinsic ordering of the marital act perhaps not having been hitherto as closely considered. I understand that this teaching of Pope Paul VI was not covered by infallibility? That does not mean it is optional. It is still binding even if not declared as an infallible definition.
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Post by tth1 on Jan 18, 2022 15:38:54 GMT
Does New Ways Ministry explicitly state that one of their goals is to promote and encourage SS marriage, or do they simply meet people where they are, not necessarily where they should be in a perfect world? I don't know. Well, they do not explicity say we promote same sex marriage. However, they do run a programme called Marriage Equality Education Program which aims to educate Catholics that many theologians and laity believe there should be civil marriage rights for committed same sex couples.
I see that as at the very least as condoning same sex marriage. I do not think it matters that they talk about civil marriage. If a same sex couple enter into a union I think it reasonable to anticipate they are going to commit gravely sinful acts that put their souls in jeopardy. That is why no Catholic should support this and should warn against it. We have our own souls to worry about and it does them no good if we are condoning major sin.
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alng
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Post by alng on Jan 18, 2022 16:17:52 GMT
Does New Ways Ministry explicitly state that one of their goals is to promote and encourage SS marriage, Please see this page and the links on that page: www.newwaysministry.org/issues/marriage-equality/I don't see how a faithful Catholic could be praising this?
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 18, 2022 16:23:40 GMT
Does New Ways Ministry explicitly state that one of their goals is to promote and encourage SS marriage, Please see this page and the links on that page: www.newwaysministry.org/issues/marriage-equality/I don't see how a faithful Catholic could be praising this? Yep, that's pretty much the handwriting on the wall. I really want to believe that Pope Francis isn't familiar with this aspect of NWM, and hasn't read this page. If he has, and if he then blesses NWM and gives them encouragement, that's pretty bad. But it still would not constitute "Catholic teaching". Not every single action and utterance of a pope rises to that level.
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Post by farronwolf on Jan 18, 2022 17:12:57 GMT
Again, unless the full text of the letters can be read, and I haven't found it yet, every point of discussion is pure speculation as to what the Pope really said and the context which he said it.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 19, 2022 14:47:59 GMT
Again, unless the full text of the letters can be read, and I haven't found it yet, every point of discussion is pure speculation as to what the Pope really said and the context which he said it. I would be all in favor of that, and there is also the possibility that the Pope never intended for those letters to be made public. I can only say, then, that when someone puts something in writing, or even allows it to be recorded (as in the famous "airplane interviews"), they need to realize that, to borrow from the legally-guaranteed Miranda rights, "it can and will be used against you". President Calvin Coolidge may have been on to something when he cultivated the public image of "Silent Cal". (But today they'd be claiming he was autistic and was practicing "selective mutism".)
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joeg
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Post by joeg on Jan 23, 2022 19:40:13 GMT
I understand that this teaching of Pope Paul VI was not covered by infallibility? Please understand I'm not being disrespectful towards couples who are struggling in this area. We all have our areas of struggle. Some perhaps are suffering from some depression or ADD and find sex to be helpful in some ways--hopefully not as a pseudo-replacement for real medical assistance. I respectfully suggest that "infallibility" is not the central issue. We should be looking for information so we can form our conscience as well as possible. You are likely aware that we are all obligated to follow our conscience and... We are all obligated to inform our conscience as well as we can. As we go through the process of informing our conscience an infallible teaching will obviously weigh more heavily. However there are very few areas of faith where there has been a formal declaration of infallibility. The more typical situation is infallibility in the ordinary exercise of the magisterium. I wrote that term because it should come up in a search of the catechism or the Vatican II documents. Vatican II explicitly discusses the matter--sorry I don't have the reference memorized any longer but could look it up for you without difficulty. I have the page marked. Our Catholic faith is based on the Bible and Tradition. So when forming your conscience you'll look for relevant teachings in the Bible and the teachings on the subject by church leaders through the centuries. When you are reading the catechism of the church and other church documents pay some attention to the footnotes. Notice that the authors are are often referring back to teachings through the centuries. As Christians we want to be followers of Jesus Christ. We trust that God loves us and wants us to be happy and fulfilled, even though God's teachings are sometimes difficult. So this is not primarily a legal matter. Did you follow the letter of the law--or if you are governed by godless Leftist tyrants--did you pay off the local officials enough. : ( This is about our relationship with God and living in a way that is consistent with God's loving plan for us--Natural Law. You can argue that the Bible does not present a legal type of statement about contraception. But since we are not about just following laws but about forming conscience and growing a relationship with God and others, the lack of a legal type of statement is not problematic. I'm only aware of two passages in the Bible that are closely related to contraception. In both instances those involved with contraception are presented as very serious evil-doers. One is the story in the Old testament that you are probably aware of. The other is Paul's condemnation of sorcerers. They were often involved in the crude contraception of the day. Again, as you try to form your conscience you'll add more recent church teachings, teachings of the saints throughout the centuries, etc. Hopefully you are aware of newer, science based forms of natural family planning. One term you'll hear is the sympto-thermal method. This may be helpful as you both try to respect God's plan for marriage and try to be responsible financially, medically, etc.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 23, 2022 20:17:23 GMT
I understand that this teaching of Pope Paul VI was not covered by infallibility? Please understand I'm not being disrespectful towards couples who are struggling in this area. We all have our areas of struggle. Some perhaps are suffering from some depression or ADD and find sex to be helpful in some ways--hopefully not as a pseudo-replacement for real medical assistance. I respectfully suggest that "infallibility" is not the central issue. We should be looking for information so we can form our conscience as well as possible. You are likely aware that we are all obligated to follow our conscience and... We are all obligated to inform our conscience as well as we can. As we go through the process of informing our conscience an infallible teaching will obviously weigh more heavily. However there are very few areas of faith where there has been a formal declaration of infallibility. The more typical situation is infallibility in the ordinary exercise of the magisterium. I wrote that term because it should come up in a search of the catechism or the Vatican II documents. Vatican II explicitly discusses the matter--sorry I don't have the reference memorized any longer but could look it up for you without difficulty. I have the page marked. Our Catholic faith is based on the Bible and Tradition. So when forming your conscience you'll look for relevant teachings in the Bible and the teachings on the subject by church leaders through the centuries. When you are reading the catechism of the church and other church documents pay some attention to the footnotes. Notice that the authors are are often referring back to teachings through the centuries. As Christians we want to be followers of Jesus Christ. We trust that God loves us and wants us to be happy and fulfilled, even though God's teachings are sometimes difficult. So this is not primarily a legal matter. Did you follow the letter of the law--or if you are governed by godless Leftist tyrants--did you pay off the local officials enough. : ( This is about our relationship with God and living in a way that is consistent with God's loving plan for us--Natural Law. You can argue that the Bible does not present a legal type of statement about contraception. But since we are not about just following laws but about forming conscience and growing a relationship with God and others, the lack of a legal type of statement is not problematic. I'm only aware of two passages in the Bible that are closely related to contraception. In both instances those involved with contraception are presented as very serious evil-doers. One is the story in the Old testament that you are probably aware of. The other is Paul's condemnation of sorcerers. They were often involved in the crude contraception of the day. Again, as you try to form your conscience you'll add more recent church teachings, teachings of the saints throughout the centuries, etc. Hopefully you are aware of newer, science based forms of natural family planning. One term you'll hear is the sympto-thermal method. This may be helpful as you both try to respect God's plan for marriage and try to be responsible financially, medically, etc. Good observations you make here. The central issue is "may we choose to do something that is intrinsically evil, and that in the objective order is mortally sinful (the complete use of the genital faculty in a way that deliberately and willfully closes it to the transmission of life in its final end)?" in pursuit of what is supposedly a good and higher end, examples being the relief of concupiscence, the strengthening of bonds between husband and wife, the use of resources towards the raising of existing children, the preservation of the wife's health, or even to save the marriage where one spouse wants to use ABC and the other one does not. There could be other "good and [supposedly] higher ends", but these should suffice. First of all, I can't state strongly enough the importance of the two spouses "being on the same page" with this. If one spouse does not think this is wrong (either a non-Catholic or a dissident Catholic, and non-Catholics who believe ABC is wrong, while rare, do exist) and the other one does, then you've got problems from the get-go. If they can't come to a meeting of the minds on this before they marry --- how many couples worry about this kind of thing? --- then they would be better off not marrying in the first place. I simply cannot fathom why a faithful Catholic would want to marry anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic, who is not of one mind with the traditional teaching of the Church on ABC. That's just asking for trouble. I have heard it said that attitudes towards ABC are not all that important. Oh, yes, they are. Whether you are ever allowed to use ABC, even in the rare or difficult cases, or not, is the "smithy", so to speak, in which your marriage will be forged. And not just that, but acceptance or rejection of ABC determines who you can (or should) marry, how large your marriage pool will be (you automatically exclude the vast majority of people), whether the mother will work or not and for how long, how much money the family will need (especially in the case of an "oops baby"), what kind of work the husband will do and how much money he will need to make, the size of one's house, whether luxuries such as quick-service food and vacations will be more difficult or not, when you can marry --- how prudent is it to say "we won't have children until Husband or Wife finishes law school, or medical school, or business school, or until H or W has made partner in the firm, or we get on our feet financially", and so on, all while trusting in NFP at the beginning of a marriage when, shall we say, one wishes to be conjugal with great frequency? As I always say, if you are not ready to have a child nine months from your wedding day, you're not ready to get married yet. It can happen and often does. Just facing facts, if you leave the door open to use ABC at any point --- even if that "point" is after you've had X number of children, tried NFP, and it didn't work --- you're asking for permission to commit serial acts that are intrinsically evil. You're wanting permission to sin. Call it what it is. And that is never an option for a Catholic. "Conscience" doesn't stretch that far.
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alng
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Post by alng on Jan 24, 2022 3:20:37 GMT
You're wanting permission to sin. Call it what it is. And that is never an option for a Catholic. "Conscience" doesn't stretch that far. OK but I haven't heard any sermons on the intrinsic evil of artificial contraception. Over the past 10 years, i.e., about 520 Sunday sermons, how many sermons of the 520 have you heard which clearly point out that artificial birth control is intrinsically evil?
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 24, 2022 3:42:27 GMT
You're wanting permission to sin. Call it what it is. And that is never an option for a Catholic. "Conscience" doesn't stretch that far. OK but I haven't heard any sermons on the intrinsic evil of artificial contraception. Over the past 10 years, i.e., about 520 Sunday sermons, how many sermons of the 520 have you heard which clearly point out that artificial birth control is intrinsically evil? Actually, our TLM priest did allude to this a few weeks ago, I don't know if he used the words "intrinsically evil" or not, but he did condemn ABC. This is very rare. ABC is the "elephant in the parlor" that nobody wants to mention. It is as though Paul VI promulgated Humanae vitae, and then... crickets.Among Catholics, it might be "thoughtcrime" to say or even think this, but any Protestant would tell you that it's because the Catholic Church, at least in the affluent West where this moral teaching was not well-received, doesn't want to lose almost all of its members. Is that why it's never asked about in the confessional? Oh, the blowback I got on another forum when I raised this possibility --- even though Jone says in Moral Theology that priests may do so, see my website for more details. Why it is hardly ever mentioned from the pulpit, and even then, only in passing? Is it brought up in RCIA classes? Is agreement with it, and resolve to live by the Church's teaching, made a condition for baptism or reception into the Church? Are the faithful reminded at Mass that it is a mortal sin and not to approach the altar for communion if they are practicing it? Are couples contemplating marriage told that it is a mortal sin? Why not? Many, many questions that hardly anyone wants to deal with.
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alng
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Post by alng on Jan 24, 2022 20:30:18 GMT
Actually, our TLM priest did allude to this a few weeks ago, TLM ? Isn't that the Mass that the Holy Father is trying to suppress? Well, one sermon at a TL Mass out of 520 sermons? I recall a poll that was taken by the sociology department of a Catholic college. They asked a few questions, one of which was something like do you believe that it is acceptable for a married couple to use ABC? For the incoming freshmen, the result was that about 50% said it was OK. For the graduating seniors (who had 4 years of instruction in Catholicism) the result was that 90% said is was OK. I don't know if they still do this, but the local Catholic high school has taught students the various methods of birth control with the nun using her finger to show how to put on a condom.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 24, 2022 20:49:52 GMT
Actually, our TLM priest did allude to this a few weeks ago, TLM ? Isn't that the Mass that the Holy Father is trying to suppress? Well, one sermon at a TL Mass out of 520 sermons? I recall a poll that was taken by the sociology department of a Catholic college. They asked a few questions, one of which was something like do you believe that it is acceptable for a married couple to use ABC? For the incoming freshmen, the result was that about 50% said it was OK. For the graduating seniors (who had 4 years of instruction in Catholicism) the result was that 90% said is was OK. I don't know if they still do this, but the local Catholic high school has taught students the various methods of birth control with the nun using her finger to show how to put on a condom. What surprises me most, is that 50% of the incoming freshmen did not say it was okay. When was this poll taken, 1965? Contraception is a mortal sin, regardless of how frequently or infrequently sermons are preached on it, regardless of how frequently or infrequently it is otherwise taught. Some priests themselves do not believe in the Church's teaching, or even if they do, they prefer to leave their people in ignorance. This is totally wrong. Bottom line, people need to be told that abandoning contraception, as well as ceasing to entertain willful doubt about the Church's teaching on the matter, is a precondition for both receiving communion and receiving absolution, that is simply that, and that for most people who do marry, this is the cross that they must bear. If they don't want to bear it, don't marry. Nobody ever died from staying single. If your prospective spouse expects this, don't marry that person. Is your top priority in life saving your soul, or is it something else? It's really that simple. Any Catholic getting married, needs to go into marriage realizing that while it's unfortunate, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise, there is always the outside chance that you will have to abstain from conjugal relations entirely, either for a long period of time, or for the rest of your life. And it needn't be a matter of avoiding pregnancy (which would end once the menopause is certainly over). Your spouse could be in an accident that left them comatose or injured in such a fashion that relations are impossible. They could be imprisoned. They could be deployed in the military for an extended time. They could be missing in action. Any number of things could happen.
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alng
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Post by alng on Jan 24, 2022 22:29:54 GMT
Contraception is a mortal sin.... Then why in the sex ed courses do the Catholic authorities at the local high school teach children how to commit the sin of contraception? They don't show students how to kill their spouse either by poison or by gun shot?
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Post by StellaMaris on Jan 24, 2022 22:53:42 GMT
OK but I haven't heard any sermons on the intrinsic evil of artificial contraception. Over the past 10 years, i.e., about 520 Sunday sermons, how many sermons of the 520 have you heard which clearly point out that artificial birth control is intrinsically evil? Actually, our TLM priest did allude to this a few weeks ago, I don't know if he used the words "intrinsically evil" or not, but he did condemn ABC. This is very rare. ABC is the "elephant in the parlor" that nobody wants to mention. It is as though Paul VI promulgated Humanae vitae, and then... crickets.Among Catholics, it might be "thoughtcrime" to say or even think this, but any Protestant would tell you that it's because the Catholic Church, at least in the affluent West where this moral teaching was not well-received, doesn't want to lose almost all of its members. Is that why it's never asked about in the confessional? Oh, the blowback I got on another forum when I raised this possibility --- even though Jone says in Moral Theology that priests may do so, see my website for more details. Why it is hardly ever mentioned from the pulpit, and even then, only in passing? Is it brought up in RCIA classes? Is agreement with it, and resolve to live by the Church's teaching, made a condition for baptism or reception into the Church? Are the faithful reminded at Mass that it is a mortal sin and not to approach the altar for communion if they are practicing it? Are couples contemplating marriage told that it is a mortal sin? Why not? Many, many questions that hardly anyone wants to deal with. It isn't prudent to talk about contraception from the pulpit when there are a range of children in the congregation. Yes, couples having pre marriage teaching are taught the acceptable means of family planning. Please don't bring Jone into this conversation. It is a dated and misogynistic perspective. Totally unacceptable for today's marriage advice. Some of Jone's advice... ‘Excluding the sodomitic intention [that is, the intention to ejaculate] it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally’ (section 757).”
“Positive co-operation on the part of the wife in sodomitical commerce is never lawful, hence, she must at least offer internal resistance. However, she may remain externally passive, provided she has endeavoured to prevent the sin. She thus applies the principle of double effect and permits the sin to avert the danger of a very grave evil which cannot otherwise be averted; it remain unlawful for her to give her consent to any concomitant pleasure.” [Jone, Moral Theology, n. 757.]Jone, you can stick your advice where you advise your men to stick theirs. Makes me want to puke when I read it.
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