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Post by solemnity on Feb 23, 2022 2:54:16 GMT
Extraordinary Magisterium?
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Post by pianistclare on Feb 23, 2022 22:24:05 GMT
This is your first post? Let me guess: You belief Vatican II to be invalid.
In his October 11, 1963 opening address at the Council, Pope John XXIII set the pace of the Council’s work:
The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciences in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.[4]
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Post by solemnity on Feb 23, 2022 23:27:21 GMT
This is your first post? Let me guess: You belief Vatican II to be invalid. In his October 11, 1963 opening address at the Council, Pope John XXIII set the pace of the Council’s work: The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciences in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.[4] What do you believe the validity or lack thereof of Vatican 2 has anything to do with Extraordinary Magisterium? |
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Post by StellaMaris on Feb 23, 2022 23:35:18 GMT
Extraordinary Magisterium? We can't be in any doubt that the Council was the work of the Holy Spirit when we have all the Popes saying so. Also from Pope John XXIII's opening speech... We might say that heaven and earth are united in the holding of the Council the saints of heaven to protect our work, the faithful of the earth continuing in prayer to the Lord, and you, seconding the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in order that the work of all may correspond to the modern expectations and needs of the various peoples of the world.Paul VI in his encyclical Ecclesiam Suam during the Council... We are confident that the great work of the Council will continue to enjoy the help and light of the Holy Spirit, and will be brought to a successful conclusion through our readiness to follow His divine inspirationsAnd Paul addressing the last general meeting of the Council... It was to find in herself, active and alive, the Holy Spirit, the word of Christ; and to probe more deeply still the mystery, the plan and the presence of God above and within herself; to revitalize in herself that faith which is the secret of her confidence and of her wisdom, and that love which impels her to sing without ceasing the praises of God.Pope JPII describing his experience of the Council as a 'seminary of the Holy Spirit' from Crossing the Threshold of Hope... At the Council the Holy Spirit spoke to the Church in all its universality, which was reflected in the presence of bishops from the whole world and by the presence of representatives of many non-Catholic Churches and communities.In 1992 addressing the Council of Charismatic Renewal he said VII is a... “particular gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church.”In a general audience in 2012 Benedict XVI says this... [Vatican II] lies before us like a great fresco, so to speak, painted with the great multiplicity and variety of its elements under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And as if we were standing in front of a large picture, still today we continue to perceive the extraordinary wealth of that moment of grace, to discover in it particular scenes, fragments and pieces of the mosaic.And of course Francis, who is facing the most intense anti Vatican II of all has repeatedly reiterated the Holy Spirits inspiration of Vatican II. In a homily he said Vatican II is... "...a beautiful work of the Holy Spirit...We celebrate this anniversary, we put up a monument but we don't want it to upset us. We don't want to change and what's more there are those who wish to turn the clock back..." He called it "stubbornness and wanting to tame the Holy Spirit...The Holy Spirit upsets us because it moves us, it makes us walk, it pushes the church forward...the Holy Spirit is the strength of God, it's what gives us the strength to go forward, but many find this upsetting and prefer the comfort of the familiar...everybody seems happy about the presence of the Holy Spirit but it's not really the case and there is still that temptation to resist it...Submit to the Holy Spirit which comes from within us and makes go forward along the path of holiness"It's a very bold Catholic who dabbles in rejecting Vatican II or trying to diminish it in my opinion. |
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Post by solemnity on Feb 24, 2022 0:07:03 GMT
Extraordinary Magisterium? We can't be in any doubt that the Council was the work of the Holy Spirit when we have all the Popes saying so. Also from Pope John XXIII's opening speech... We might say that heaven and earth are united in the holding of the Council the saints of heaven to protect our work, the faithful of the earth continuing in prayer to the Lord, and you, seconding the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in order that the work of all may correspond to the modern expectations and needs of the various peoples of the world.Paul VI in his encyclical Ecclesiam Suam during the Council... We are confident that the great work of the Council will continue to enjoy the help and light of the Holy Spirit, and will be brought to a successful conclusion through our readiness to follow His divine inspirationsAnd Paul addressing the last general meeting of the Council... It was to find in herself, active and alive, the Holy Spirit, the word of Christ; and to probe more deeply still the mystery, the plan and the presence of God above and within herself; to revitalize in herself that faith which is the secret of her confidence and of her wisdom, and that love which impels her to sing without ceasing the praises of God.Pope JPII describing his experience of the Council as a 'seminary of the Holy Spirit' from Crossing the Threshold of Hope... At the Council the Holy Spirit spoke to the Church in all its universality, which was reflected in the presence of bishops from the whole world and by the presence of representatives of many non-Catholic Churches and communities.In 1992 addressing the Council of Charismatic Renewal he said VII is a... “particular gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church.”In a general audience in 2012 Benedict XVI says this... [Vatican II] lies before us like a great fresco, so to speak, painted with the great multiplicity and variety of its elements under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And as if we were standing in front of a large picture, still today we continue to perceive the extraordinary wealth of that moment of grace, to discover in it particular scenes, fragments and pieces of the mosaic.And of course Francis, who is facing the most intense anti Vatican II of all has repeatedly reiterated the Holy Spirits inspiration of Vatican II. In a homily he said Vatican II is... "...a beautiful work of the Holy Spirit...We celebrate this anniversary, we put up a monument but we don't want it to upset us. We don't want to change and what's more there are those who wish to turn the clock back..." He called it "stubbornness and wanting to tame the Holy Spirit...The Holy Spirit upsets us because it moves us, it makes us walk, it pushes the church forward...the Holy Spirit is the strength of God, it's what gives us the strength to go forward, but many find this upsetting and prefer the comfort of the familiar...everybody seems happy about the presence of the Holy Spirit but it's not really the case and there is still that temptation to resist it...Submit to the Holy Spirit which comes from within us and makes go forward along the path of holiness"It's a very bold Catholic who dabbles in rejecting Vatican II or trying to diminish it in my opinion.Then, why do you believe Vatican 2 does not fall under Extraordinary Magisterium? |
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Post by StellaMaris on Feb 24, 2022 2:36:19 GMT
Then, why do you believe Vatican 2 does not fall under Extraordinary Magisterium? As pianistclares citation from the opening speech at Vatican II explains, the Council was not dealing with dogma's and doctrines per se, but addressing the way they were presented to modern man. That makes the difference. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Feb 24, 2022 4:09:16 GMT
This is indeed very key to the discussion, and I am glad that our moderator reproduced this:
The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciences in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.[4]
I would want any discussion of Vatican II to begin by reflecting upon these wise words.
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Post by solemnity on Feb 24, 2022 12:51:06 GMT
This is indeed very key to the discussion, and I am glad that our moderator reproduced this: The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciences in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.[4]
I would want any discussion of Vatican II to begin by reflecting upon these wise words. Your post doesn't explain why you think Vatican 2 does not fall under Extraordinary Magisterium? |
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Post by homeschooldad on Feb 24, 2022 13:48:15 GMT
This is indeed very key to the discussion, and I am glad that our moderator reproduced this: The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciences in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.[4]
I would want any discussion of Vatican II to begin by reflecting upon these wise words. Your post doesn't explain why you think Vatican 2 does not fall under Extraordinary Magisterium? Probably the best way of putting it, would be that any Ecumenical Council of the Church --- which Vatican II was --- provides the opportunity for the Church to teach in its extraordinary magisterium, but in this particular council, she did not do so, because no doctrines or dogmas were proclaimed. Vatican II taught nothing new, but refined and further explained existing Catholic doctrine. Nothing infallible came out of Vatican II that did not already exist going into it. Vatican II, as noted above, was first and foremost a pastoral council. I want to take care here, not to conflate "extraordinary magisterium" and "extraordinary infallibility". Nothing in Vatican II was taught infallibly, but then again, it is not only infallible teachings that bind with assent of faith. If you will consult Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, there are many teachings that fall short of infallibility, yet we must accept them. This might be helpful: www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34699 |
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Post by pianistclare on Feb 24, 2022 14:57:16 GMT
Obviously "solemnity" has an agenda.
He refuses to accept Vatican II, which is regrettable. Much good came out of it. Indeed, much of the division and resulting misinterpretation came from those who refused to accept this VALID Council and the reforms it put forth.
The question is designed to create discord. From the Synod Prayer:
"We are weak and sinful;
do not permit us to promote.
Do not let ignorance lead us down the wrong path
nor partiality influence our actions.
All this we ask of You, who are at work in every place and time, in the communion of the Father and the Son, forever and ever, AMEN
I think everyone has provided excellent answers to the query.
Please consider them prayerfully.
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Post by solemnity on Feb 24, 2022 17:06:44 GMT
Obviously "solemnity" has an agenda. He refuses to accept Vatican II, which is regrettable. Much good came out of it. Indeed, much of the division and resulting misinterpretation came from those who refused to accept this VALID Council and the reforms it put forth. The question is designed to create discord. From the Synod Prayer: "We are weak and sinful; do not permit us to promote. Do not let ignorance lead us down the wrong path nor partiality influence our actions. All this we ask of You, who are at work in every place and time, in the communion of the Father and the Son, forever and ever, AMEN I think everyone has provided excellent answers to the query. Please consider them prayerfully. Since no new doctrines or dogmas were proclaimed, any division and misinterpretation did not come from the Extraordinary Magisterium and from those who obey the Extraordinary Magisterium? |
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Post by pianistclare on Feb 24, 2022 17:24:03 GMT
Define Extraordinary Magisterium, According to what YOU think it means.
Are do you agree you are encouraging division?
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Post by solemnity on Feb 24, 2022 17:49:34 GMT
Define Extraordinary Magisterium, According to what YOU think it means. Are do you agree you are encouraging division? The Extraordinary Magisterium is unity. |
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Post by pianistclare on Feb 24, 2022 19:34:28 GMT
Then you clearly are just trying to stir the pot. No one believes Vat II destroyed unity.
It's an approved and lauded event in Church History.
It's regrettable that you cannot see that.
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Post by solemnity on Feb 24, 2022 19:57:01 GMT
Then you clearly are just trying to stir the pot. No one believes Vat II destroyed unity. It's an approved and lauded event in Church History. It's regrettable that you cannot see that. Vatican 2 did not destroy unity, since, we already have Extraordinary Magisterium. |
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