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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 26, 2022 18:10:20 GMT
If I'm understanding correctly, one way that consecration of Russia (and Ukraine, for that matter) to the Immaculate Heart of Mary "hits a snag" with the Orthodox, is that they do not believe in Original Sin, and therefore --- pardon me if I'm wrong here --- they would not believe that Our Lady needed to be "immaculately conceived". Or am I conflating "Immaculate Conception" with "Immaculate Heart", that is, could they believe that she did indeed never sin, thereby having an "immaculate heart", regardless of any concept of Original Sin? IOW, does someone need to be immaculately conceived to have an immaculate heart?
So what, if any, role does Original Sin play in Orthodox theology? Perhaps they implicitly believe in it, but do not understand or explain it the same way we do? Even Catholicism does not teach, pace the "total depravity" false doctrine of the heretical Calvinists, that man in his unredeemed nature is totally vile and evil --- he does possess a certain natural goodness, and can exercise natural virtue, by mere virtue of being human and created by Almighty God, albeit fallen from grace. Examples of this would be many aspects of pre-Christian Greek philosophy and the Roman civic virtues, both of which have served to enrich Catholic Christianity.
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Post by tisbearself on Mar 27, 2022 15:40:00 GMT
First of all, in general the Orthodox don't have a problem with a consecration to Mary, the Holy Theotokos. Second, to the extent that the consecration is seen as relating to the private revelations of Our Lady of Fatima, the Russian Orthodox are not too keen on the idea that Russian needs to be "converted" because they believe that they are God's true church and therefore no need for a "conversion" for them - in their mind it's the Catholics who should be "converting" over to Orthodoxy. Third, the Orthodox in general do not believe in the reverencing of the hearts of Jesus and Mary, even if you just called them both Sacred Hearts. As I understand it, it's weird and gross to them to single out a particular part of God or the Theotokos, and they would associate that sort of thing with Latin Catholicism. Fourth, the Oriental Orthodox do believe in the Immaculate Conception and have a feast day for it. The Eastern Orthodox do not accept it because they see it as stemming from St. Augustine's teachings on original sin, which they do not accept. Fifth, the differences between the Augustinian teaching and the Eastern Orthodox teaching on original sin are described in the Wikipedia article on Original Sin under "Denominational views". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#Denominational_views
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 27, 2022 16:12:41 GMT
First of all, in general the Orthodox don't have a problem with a consecration to Mary, the Holy Theotokos. Second, to the extent that the consecration is seen as relating to the private revelations of Our Lady of Fatima, the Russian Orthodox are not too keen on the idea that Russian needs to be "converted" because they believe that they are God's true church and therefore no need for a "conversion" for them - in their mind it's the Catholics who should be "converting" over to Orthodoxy. Third, the Orthodox in general do not believe in the reverencing of the hearts of Jesus and Mary, even if you just called them both Sacred Hearts. As I understand it, it's weird and gross to them to single out a particular part of God or the Theotokos, and they would associate that sort of thing with Latin Catholicism. Fourth, the Oriental Orthodox do believe in the Immaculate Conception and have a feast day for it. The Eastern Orthodox do not accept it because they see it as stemming from St. Augustine's teachings on original sin, which they do not accept. Fifth, the differences between the Augustinian teaching and the Eastern Orthodox teaching on original sin are described in the Wikipedia article on Original Sin under "Denominational views". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#Denominational_viewsExcellent post, with points I wouldn't have known to consider. Thank you. It may just be my own bias, but I've always understood the "conversion of Russia" to be primarily its turning away from atheistic communism to apostolic Christianity, with the larger question of "does Russia, then, convert (or revert) back to Orthodoxy, or does she 'go all the way' and come into communion with Rome in some way?" being ambiguous.
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Post by tth1 on Apr 8, 2022 15:21:21 GMT
First of all, in general the Orthodox don't have a problem with a consecration to Mary, the Holy Theotokos. Second, to the extent that the consecration is seen as relating to the private revelations of Our Lady of Fatima, the Russian Orthodox are not too keen on the idea that Russian needs to be "converted" because they believe that they are God's true church and therefore no need for a "conversion" for them - in their mind it's the Catholics who should be "converting" over to Orthodoxy. Third, the Orthodox in general do not believe in the reverencing of the hearts of Jesus and Mary, even if you just called them both Sacred Hearts. As I understand it, it's weird and gross to them to single out a particular part of God or the Theotokos, and they would associate that sort of thing with Latin Catholicism. Fourth, the Oriental Orthodox do believe in the Immaculate Conception and have a feast day for it. The Eastern Orthodox do not accept it because they see it as stemming from St. Augustine's teachings on original sin, which they do not accept. Fifth, the differences between the Augustinian teaching and the Eastern Orthodox teaching on original sin are described in the Wikipedia article on Original Sin under "Denominational views". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#Denominational_viewsExcellent post, with points I wouldn't have known to consider. Thank you. It may just be my own bias, but I've always understood the "conversion of Russia" to be primarily its turning away from atheistic communism to apostolic Christianity, with the larger question of "does Russia, then, convert (or revert) back to Orthodoxy, or does she 'go all the way' and come into communion with Rome in some way?" being ambiguous. I, too, admit to having always thought Our Lady wanted the conversion of Russia to be a conversion from agressive atheism back to Christianity. I suppose the time when the Fatima apparitions occurs in history would strength that belief. Now, I'm left wondering in the same way as you to what Our Lady asked Russia to convert.
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Post by homeschooldad on Apr 9, 2022 17:03:13 GMT
Excellent post, with points I wouldn't have known to consider. Thank you. It may just be my own bias, but I've always understood the "conversion of Russia" to be primarily its turning away from atheistic communism to apostolic Christianity, with the larger question of "does Russia, then, convert (or revert) back to Orthodoxy, or does she 'go all the way' and come into communion with Rome in some way?" being ambiguous. I, too, admit to having always thought Our Lady wanted the conversion of Russia to be a conversion from agressive atheism back to Christianity. I suppose the time when the Fatima apparitions occurs in history would strength that belief. Now, I'm left wondering in the same way as you to what Our Lady asked Russia to convert. Without intending any disrespect or lack of belief in it, Fatima in some ways resembles a Delphic oracle --- we have bare-bones prophecies, but in the end, we don't really know what a lot of the prophecies mean. I have wondered if the "annihilation of nations" referred to the Holocaust. Whether Our Lady was speaking of the "conversion of Russia" as a reversion to Russian Orthodoxy, which undeniably has a prominent place in Russian life (would be nice if the ROC would discern whether the wholesale massacre of innocent Ukrainian civilians squares with the Gospel message she supposedly believes in), or of the establishment of communion between the ROC and Rome. Perhaps it's both.
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Post by tth1 on Apr 9, 2022 17:10:13 GMT
I, too, admit to having always thought Our Lady wanted the conversion of Russia to be a conversion from agressive atheism back to Christianity. I suppose the time when the Fatima apparitions occurs in history would strength that belief. Now, I'm left wondering in the same way as you to what Our Lady asked Russia to convert. Without intending any disrespect or lack of belief in it, Fatima in some ways resembles a Delphic oracle --- we have bare-bones prophecies, but in the end, we don't really know what a lot of the prophecies mean. I have wondered if the "annihilation of nations" referred to the Holocaust. Whether Our Lady was speaking of the "conversion of Russia" as a reversion to Russian Orthodoxy, which undeniably has a prominent place in Russian life (would be nice if the ROC would discern whether the wholesale massacre of innocent Ukrainian civilians squares with the Gospel message she supposedly believes in), or of the establishment of communion between the ROC and Rome. Perhaps it's both. It would be nice if Patriarch Kirill popped into the Kremlin and now Vlad there's a good lad stop all this killing in the Ukraine. Don't you know it is against the teachings of the Gospels.
Not going to happen, of course. It seems to me with the ROC and Putin's regime it's a case of you scratch my back and I'' scratch yours. Putin has kept Kirill in luxuries for many long years.
Communion with Rome would be nice. Finally accepting the authority of Peter is what we can hope for. Again, it's not going to happen. The eastern Orthodox churches struggle to maintain communion with each other. Communion between the Orthodox and Catholic isn't going to happen in my lifetime and I hope I still have a few good years ahead of me yet.
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Post by homeschooldad on Apr 9, 2022 17:54:27 GMT
Without intending any disrespect or lack of belief in it, Fatima in some ways resembles a Delphic oracle --- we have bare-bones prophecies, but in the end, we don't really know what a lot of the prophecies mean. I have wondered if the "annihilation of nations" referred to the Holocaust. Whether Our Lady was speaking of the "conversion of Russia" as a reversion to Russian Orthodoxy, which undeniably has a prominent place in Russian life (would be nice if the ROC would discern whether the wholesale massacre of innocent Ukrainian civilians squares with the Gospel message she supposedly believes in), or of the establishment of communion between the ROC and Rome. Perhaps it's both. It would be nice if Patriarch Kirill popped into the Kremlin and now Vlad there's a good lad stop all this killing in the Ukraine. Don't you know it is against the teachings of the Gospels.
Not going to happen, of course. It seems to me with the ROC and Putin's regime it's a case of you scratch my back and I'' scratch yours. Putin has kept Kirill in luxuries for many long years.
Communion with Rome would be nice. Finally accepting the authority of Peter is what we can hope for. Again, it's not going to happen. The eastern Orthodox churches struggle to maintain communion with each other. Communion between the Orthodox and Catholic isn't going to happen in my lifetime and I hope I still have a few good years ahead of me yet.
And just to be fair, do all of the bishops in various countries where abortion is legal --- and where politics are such that activism against abortion could actually do something about it --- roundly and uniformly condemn radically pro-choice politicians who actively support and enable such choice by positive acts? Or is their condemnation more muted and oblique?
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Post by tth1 on Apr 11, 2022 16:03:23 GMT
It would be nice if Patriarch Kirill popped into the Kremlin and now Vlad there's a good lad stop all this killing in the Ukraine. Don't you know it is against the teachings of the Gospels.
Not going to happen, of course. It seems to me with the ROC and Putin's regime it's a case of you scratch my back and I'' scratch yours. Putin has kept Kirill in luxuries for many long years.
Communion with Rome would be nice. Finally accepting the authority of Peter is what we can hope for. Again, it's not going to happen. The eastern Orthodox churches struggle to maintain communion with each other. Communion between the Orthodox and Catholic isn't going to happen in my lifetime and I hope I still have a few good years ahead of me yet.
And just to be fair, do all of the bishops in various countries where abortion is legal --- and where politics are such that activism against abortion could actually do something about it --- roundly and uniformly condemn radically pro-choice politicians who actively support and enable such choice by positive acts? Or is their condemnation more muted and oblique? I fully agree; we could widen the scope of the discussion. It's not that I believe all other bishops are wonderful examples to us all but was focusing on the discussion. Having just looked at the thread's title so see what the discussion is about I'm obviously not sticking to it as it's about what the Orthodox view is on original sin!
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Post by homeschooldad on Apr 11, 2022 22:55:00 GMT
Within very broad bounds, I've found that threads on CCS are allowed to develop organically and even to "drift" as the occasion arises. This is a very small forum. Doesn't bother me a bit. I've been on strict, heavily moderated "stick to the topic" forums before, and it's no fun.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit sometimes wishes for discussions to go in an unforeseen direction?
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Post by tth1 on Apr 12, 2022 15:59:38 GMT
I agree completely. I often see posts on fora as a form of conversation. It's quite natural during the course of a conversation to end up at some place very remote from where it began. Sometimes this happens to the extent that no one can recall how the original conversation began. Just normal human discourse.
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Post by theguvnor on Apr 13, 2022 14:13:34 GMT
First of all, in general the Orthodox don't have a problem with a consecration to Mary, the Holy Theotokos. Second, to the extent that the consecration is seen as relating to the private revelations of Our Lady of Fatima, the Russian Orthodox are not too keen on the idea that Russian needs to be "converted" because they believe that they are God's true church and therefore no need for a "conversion" for them - in their mind it's the Catholics who should be "converting" over to Orthodoxy. Third, the Orthodox in general do not believe in the reverencing of the hearts of Jesus and Mary, even if you just called them both Sacred Hearts. As I understand it, it's weird and gross to them to single out a particular part of God or the Theotokos, and they would associate that sort of thing with Latin Catholicism. Fourth, the Oriental Orthodox do believe in the Immaculate Conception and have a feast day for it. The Eastern Orthodox do not accept it because they see it as stemming from St. Augustine's teachings on original sin, which they do not accept. Fifth, the differences between the Augustinian teaching and the Eastern Orthodox teaching on original sin are described in the Wikipedia article on Original Sin under "Denominational views". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#Denominational_viewsThe Orthodox don't have a problem with consecrations performed by their own clergy. It is perhaps wisest to approach the Orthodox for views about these matters, not a Catholic who has looked up things for five minutes on Wikipedia.
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Post by tisbearself on Apr 14, 2022 14:40:42 GMT
I have a feeling I know who this is. Happy Holy Week to you too.
This is a Catholic forum. If anyone wants answers from an actual Orthodox they should visit an Orthodox forum. There are plenty of them online.
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Post by theguvnor on Apr 15, 2022 23:01:54 GMT
Indeed it is a Catholic forum - so why are you deeming it appropriate for you as a Catholic to say what the Orthodox will or will not have trouble with? Toodles, Septic.
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Post by tisbearself on Apr 16, 2022 9:36:09 GMT
Indeed it is a Catholic forum - so why are you deeming it appropriate for you as a Catholic to say what the Orthodox will or will not have trouble with? Toodles, Septic. Assuming you are who I think you are, then you too are Catholic. Nevertheless, I appreciate the correction to misinformation, as always. Although I think you might be more effective in your corrections, and in presenting information generally, if you were more charitable and not rude or quick to anger. However, it's good for my humility. Hope you and yours have a happy Easter.
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Post by theguvnor on Apr 21, 2022 13:39:59 GMT
Indeed it is a Catholic forum - so why are you deeming it appropriate for you as a Catholic to say what the Orthodox will or will not have trouble with? Toodles, Septic. Assuming you are who I think you are, then you too are Catholic. Nevertheless, I appreciate the correction to misinformation, as always. Although I think you might be more effective in your corrections, and in presenting information generally, if you were more charitable and not rude or quick to anger. However, it's good for my humility. Hope you and yours have a happy Easter. Attachments:
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