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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2022 4:36:03 GMT
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2022 4:38:19 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 9, 2022 10:35:33 GMT
No reflection on that bishop but I wonder how many Catholics he has actually going to Mass in his diocese and whether any are under 50. My experiences of Dutch Mass (OF) in the late 00's were that you could shoot ducks in the place and even on Sunday, all the attendees were older people. If the TLM is actually getting young people to go to church there then I can see why he is getting all fired up.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2022 15:36:22 GMT
No reflection on that bishop but I wonder how many Catholics he has actually going to Mass in his diocese and whether any are under 50. My experiences of Dutch Mass (OF) in the late 00's were that you could shoot ducks in the place and even on Sunday, all the attendees were older people. If the TLM is actually getting young people to go to church there then I can see why he is getting all fired up. Perhaps the TLM can be the nucleus of a revival of faith in Europe. The videos I've seen of this animated, lively worship in Africa and elsewhere, tell me that Bishop Sheen was right when he said that the Byzantine Rite might be more appropriate for Africa and Asia, but Europeans are more sedate, stolid types, and we need to be free to pray and worship in the way appropriate to our temperament. Let everybody be what they are, as God made them. Yes, "we". I am of European descent, as is my son, who has EU citizenship, which, sadly, I do not share. You can't help where you're born. Our home and our homeschool are robustly Eurocentric, just as if we were black, it would be Afrocentric, and that would be fine too. We have an Afrocentric private academy in our city, and I applaud and respect their efforts to preserve their heritage and cultural patrimony, just as we preserve ours. |
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 9, 2022 16:07:24 GMT
If the end goal of the Church is to get people to go to Mass, I would think they would be embracing as many variations of Mass as is possible to encourage people to do that.
This idea that our unity is shown by everybody attending exactly the same Mass rite is silly given that we are in communion with all sorts of Eastern churches having their own rites and there is even a Zaire Rite for Africa, as well as several permissible European rites that may be only used a little bit but are allowed nonetheless.
When clerics start beating the "unity" drum as an excuse to suppress Mass rites, I usually just see a bunch of old guys who don't want to admit that their great liturgical experiment milkshake didn't bring all the Catholics to the yard like they thought it would when they were young. Some people want the same ol' spinach and a lot of those people weren't even born yet when Vatican II was happening and couldn't care less what problems it was supposed to be solving. We have a new world now with a new set of problems and it calls for a different mindset than the 1960s.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 9, 2022 16:33:36 GMT
What does of 'European' descent even mean - Europe is not homogenous, how I express my faith as an Irish Catholic would have points of commonality with other Europeans but also points of difference. The Byzantine Rite is used in parts of Europe and has been for many centuries. This idea that Europeans are more 'sedate, solid types' is a bit stereotypical. Europe has lots of different cultures and they do vary. Even the Irish vary from the English in how we approach some things although we have a fair degree of cultural similarity. I'd like to see Bishop Sheen's comment the original source. A man of his intellect would I think be unlikely to paint with so broad a brush without some nuances to his remarks.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2022 16:40:07 GMT
If the end goal of the Church is to get people to go to Mass, I would think they would be embracing as many variations of Mass as is possible to encourage people to do that. This idea that our unity is shown by everybody attending exactly the same Mass rite is silly given that we are in communion with all sorts of Eastern churches having their own rites and there is even a Zaire Rite for Africa, as well as several permissible European rites that may be only used a little bit but are allowed nonetheless. When clerics start beating the "unity" drum as an excuse to suppress Mass rites, I usually just see a bunch of old guys who don't want to admit that their great liturgical experiment milkshake didn't bring all the Catholics to the yard like they thought it would when they were young. Some people want the same ol' spinach and a lot of those people weren't even born yet when Vatican II was happening and couldn't care less what problems it was supposed to be solving. We have a new world now with a new set of problems and it calls for a different mindset than the 1960s. One aspect of this alleged "unity" scenario I see, is that we have four different main Eucharistic prayers (though #4 is rarely used). In addition to that, you have so many options within the remainder of the 1969+ Missal, that it's like putting together Legos or Tinkertoys. The closest thing you have to that in the TLM is the optional Asperges me rite at the beginning of Mass, as well as the second Confiteor. Quite aside from anything else you can say about the Pian versus Pauline missals, one reason (one of many) I prefer the TLM, is that the Novus Ordo is like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates --- "you never know what you're gonna get". While, I will admit, the TLM sometimes feels like Groundhog Day --- the exact same Mass, over and over and over again --- that's not a bad thing. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2022 17:01:36 GMT
What does of 'European' descent even mean - Europe is not homogenous, how I express my faith as an Irish Catholic would have points of commonality with other Europeans but also points of difference. The Byzantine Rite is used in parts of Europe and has been for many centuries. This idea that Europeans are more 'sedate, solid types' is a bit stereotypical. Europe has lots of different cultures and they do vary. Even the Irish vary from the English in how we approach some things although we have a fair degree of cultural similarity. I'd like to see Bishop Sheen's comment the original source. A man of his intellect would I think be unlikely to paint with so broad a brush without some nuances to his remarks. You are correct in saying that Europe is highly diverse, but that said, there's a certain commonality in spite of that fact. Europeans are not Africans or Asians. Europe gets a lot of hate it doesn't deserve (not calling you a hater, just stating the fact), and I could speculate upon the agenda behind that, but I'll reserve comment for now. I can't summon up the quote right off the top of my head --- I have been reading about the Faith for almost 50 years now --- but I know he said it, and I don't think I dreamed that. I have to wonder if, in some "future-Church" where Asia, Africa, and Latin America run the show, and European patrimony is shoved to the sidelines, this book will be put on some kind of Index Librorum Prohibitorum: www.amazon.com/Europe-Faith-Hilaire-Belloc/dp/1609421922It's good reading and I heartily recommend it. Here's a page with various links: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8442Please note that I fully realize the Faith is not just European. It began in the Levant, and there are rites of apostolic origin outside Europe --- India, Ethiopia, Armenia (only European in the absolutely broadest sense), and so on --- that preserve the Faith as fully as Europeans do. |
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Post by tth1 on Nov 9, 2022 17:07:43 GMT
... my son, who has EU citizenship ... I'd be more than interested for you to explain what you mean by this. For the best part of my life I have lived in the EU. However, I was never a citizen of the EU. You can be a citizen of a member state of the EU and that gives you certain rights within the EU. for example, you can travel from one EU country to another without the need for a visa or any other special entry requirements. If you are a citizen of an EU country you have the right to live in any EU country. However, you cannot, as far as I know, be a citizen of the EU itself. |
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 9, 2022 17:29:23 GMT
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 9, 2022 17:32:49 GMT
Africa and Asia are also highly diverse. There's a large amount of cultural variation in Africa and a Nigerian and an Egyptian for example will have very different cultural backgrounds and outlooks. Asian is a term I find problematic when talking with Americans as what Irish and British people mean when we use the term is different and we would include people from the Indian sub-continent in the term whereas Americans do not I believe. I find the term 'Asian' so wide as to be increasingly meaningless myself in British use since it includes Japan, China, India, Pakistan, Thailand, Korea and numerous other nations.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2022 20:06:04 GMT
... my son, who has EU citizenship ... I'd be more than interested for you to explain what you mean by this. For the best part of my life I have lived in the EU. However, I was never a citizen of the EU. You can be a citizen of a member state of the EU and that gives you certain rights within the EU. for example, you can travel from one EU country to another without the need for a visa or any other special entry requirements. If you are a citizen of an EU country you have the right to live in any EU country. However, you cannot, as far as I know, be a citizen of the EU itself. Just what theguvnor said: ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/eu-citizenship/eu-citizenship_en |
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2022 20:14:50 GMT
Africa and Asia are also highly diverse. There's a large amount of cultural variation in Africa and a Nigerian and an Egyptian for example will have very different cultural backgrounds and outlooks. Asian is a term I find problematic when talking with Americans as what Irish and British people mean when we use the term is different and we would include people from the Indian sub-continent in the term whereas Americans do not I believe. I find the term 'Asian' so wide as to be increasingly meaningless myself in British use since it includes Japan, China, India, Pakistan, Thailand, Korea and numerous other nations. They are highly diverse indeed. Asia is comprised of at least three (and probably more) distinct cultural regions, viz. the Middle East, South Asia (India/Pakistan/Bangladesh and other smaller countries), and East and Southeast Asia. There are also the regions of the former USSR, including Russia's Asian portion. Africa is similarly diverse. However, you would never mistake any of these areas with anyplace in Europe (Israel is sui generis for obvious historical reasons), and there is far more commonality between, say, Belgium and Bulgaria than either one would have with Myanmar (Burma) or either of the Congos. Anglo-America, Australia, and New Zealand are largely cultural extensions of Europe, mutatis mutandis, ditto for Argentina, Chile, and to some extent Brazil. Buenos Aires has far more in common with Paris than it does with Bangkok. My point should be clear. |
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 9, 2022 20:33:43 GMT
Africa and Asia are also highly diverse. There's a large amount of cultural variation in Africa and a Nigerian and an Egyptian for example will have very different cultural backgrounds and outlooks. Asian is a term I find problematic when talking with Americans as what Irish and British people mean when we use the term is different and we would include people from the Indian sub-continent in the term whereas Americans do not I believe. I find the term 'Asian' so wide as to be increasingly meaningless myself in British use since it includes Japan, China, India, Pakistan, Thailand, Korea and numerous other nations. "Asian" in US essentially is a racial term referring to those who would have been previously called "Oriental" or another scientific term that, although it was in its day a scientific term, would now be viewed as incredibly rude so I won't use it here. Many US people with ancestry from China, Japan, Viet Nam, Korea etc don't really like the term either because it lumps people together from many countries who often have had very different cultures and sometimes contentious relationships between said countries. People from India, Pakistan etc would likely be called by educated US people the name of whatever their country is ("Indian", etc.) and by uneducated US people, "Arabs" or something equally stupid. It's only been in recent decades that we've started to get large numbers of these folks coming into USA especially in the medical, tech, hotel, and convenience store/ donut shop industries (They seem to run just about every Dunkin' Donuts in my county) and they tend to go straight into professional neighborhoods or otherwise blend in rather than forming some kind of ethnic enclave, so they never really got a group term here. |
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 9, 2022 22:36:26 GMT
I remember my friend's wife Jane who is Chinese (that isn't her real name by the way, it's an Anglicized version of her name Quian which is difficult to pronounce for some Westerners)trying to explain to her mother-in-law shortly after marriage some of the history between Japan and China. Jane is from the borders of China where there is a population of Chinese with mixed Chinese/Russian ancestry and she was trying to explain this as well. Her mother-in-law is (and forgive the expression) what you would in America call a hick. She came from a small village of a few hundred people in what is now Slovenia and she was not overly pleased with her son for marrying someone Chinese. I knew most of what Jane was going on about because I'm a history buff but of course, Jane had takes on it from 'inside the culture' that wouldn't have occurred to me which was interesting. Sadly Janes's new mother-in-law just couldn't deal with the notion of a Chinese daughter-in-law in the long term and when Jane got pregnant realized her grandkids would be part Chinese and there was a massive screaming row which I sadly saw first-hand in which talk of blood pollution popped up and nonsense like this and this led to Jane and her husband moving away. A sad situation that seems to have no happy outcome as granny is still talking racist rubbish in Canada where she lives with her older daughter and talking about how the Slavic peoples should not mix their blood.
Amusingly Pakistanis formed an enclave of low-paid workers here in the East End for a long time (and still do to some extent) in areas like Whitechapel and Bethnal Green. These people came to London in the late 50's onwards and worked in low-paid industries, although their kids prospered as they valued education. This sort of stuff is underlying some of the racist blowback Rishi Sunak gets at times.
You are not thinking about the term 'C***stial' are you - that never had much provenance in the UK or Ireland but I am aware of its usage in US history.
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