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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 8, 2023 18:34:12 GMT
www.catholic365.com/article/30313/95-marriages-null-.htmlLot of food for thought here. Not sure I'm on board with this business of generational curses (yet Original Sin comes down to each of us through no fault of our own), but if the main contention in this article is true, that would be a huge "safety net" for all those whose have been using ABC and whose marriages fail, and wish to get a fresh start in a happier union (or even to move forward in another vocation, even that to the single life, unfettered by a valid marriage). And such marriages could be convalidated upon repentance of the sin and determination to eschew contraception going forward. Interesting to consider what kind of pushback there would be, though, if the question "are you resolved not to use contraception from the very first day of the marriage?" were part of the premarital scrutinies, and if a negative answer would result in refusal to marry the couple. You'd have a whole lot of people running off to magistrates or non-Catholic ministers (but then again, those marriages would be invalid as well). I don't have a citation here, but I'm pretty sure Father John Hardon said that a marriage was not consummated if a couple used a contraceptive means in so attempting. And of course, none of this would apply if a couple were infertile through no fault of their own, such as through having had surgery that makes conception impossible, or the woman having gone through menopause. A woman being under medical treatment where contraceptive pills are used to address a health issue (such as endometriosis), with infertility being an unwanted and unwelcomed side effect, would create the same scenario.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 9, 2023 8:51:08 GMT
There's no food for thought in that article, just the usual moralizing nattering on about other people's marriages that the author knows nothing about but enjoys painting doomsday pictures. Marriages in the Church are presumed valid - that means if neither party ever tries to get an annulment, then it's not null no matter what some article author thinks. The concept of "generational curses" is contrary to Catholic teaching (explicitly rejected by Christ in Scripture). There is no such thing. I have noticed that the Catholic sources who support in part the idea either say that they go along with the idea to humor those seeking deliverance ministry or else they describe natural results of human genetics/ behavior (such as familial alcoholism, or fetal alcohol syndrome) as being "curses". I don't find that approach helpful as it seems to be taking ordinary physical diseases or conditions and putting them into some weird supernatural context. www.oursundayvisitor.com/what-does-the-church-teach-about-generational-curses/
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 12, 2023 5:41:54 GMT
I will grant that the article is pretty turgid, and introduces a new ground for declaration of nullity that is found nowhere in the present norms. Even if one were to grant that Fr John Hardon's idea is correct, that a marriage is not consummated as long as a couple deliberately makes their marriage artificially closed to the transmission of life, then by the same reasoning, once they discontinue the use of ABC (as in deciding "the time's right" to have a child), then at that point the marriage would be consummated, and would no longer be ratum sed non consummatum, which is a ground for nullity (or dissolution, albeit reserved to the Holy See).
The author's contention, if I'm reading it correctly, that even though a marriage starts out open to life, if the couple has it in mind to practice ABC at some later point, it is invalid due to that mindset, is very much of a reach. With his having taught at a "Pontifical Catholic University" (would be nice if he'd specified which one), I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand, and it's also worth noting that I just happened upon this through a link on the National Catholic Register website, not dredged up in some sort of sedevacantist fever swamp. It does, however, look like something Ron Conte (or someone like him) would come up with.
This said, though, I would be interested in seeing someone explain that "contraceptive intent is not a nullifying factor for marriage because...", aside from the fact that it is not on the list of present recognized reasons for nullity. Maybe the Church doesn't want to "go there"?
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Post by ratioetfides on Aug 12, 2023 12:59:30 GMT
Considering that Fred is a ‘pioneer in fighting the PLANdmeic,’ an acolyte of Robert Malone, and has published:
the COVID vaccine is 10x more deadly than COVID-19,
Joe Biden is a ‘White House squatter who’s actions are void,’
‘their’ plan is to reduce the world population to 500mill,
I would guess they purposefully left out the name of the pontifical university to obscure the reason for departure Further, it’s probably pretty safe to dismiss him pretty much out of hand as a crank.
It stays a lot about Catholic360 and their editorial stance/decisions.
Under the editorial leadership of Micahel Warsaw it is no surprise that such an author was promoted on a NCR site via a link.
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Post by tth1 on Aug 12, 2023 13:43:23 GMT
Marriage possesses the favour of law; therefore, in a case of doubt, the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven. (Canon 1060)
A marriage can only be declared null by a competent ecclesiastical tribunal, not on someone's blog.
A marriage is valid or invalid depending on the circumstances at the time of the marriage. What happens afterwards cannot make it null. The fact a couple may use some form of artificial contraception during their marriage does not necessarily mean at the time they married one or both of them intended to exclude a marriage open to children.
The pope can dissolve a marriage that has not been consummated. He dissolves a valid marriage. He does not declare it null. Dissolution and nullity are not the same thing. The Church presumes if a couple have cohabited after marriage that it has been consummated.
If a couple are using some form of artificial contraception that is a matter between them, God and their confessor(s).
Only a couple can ask a tribunal to consider the validity of their marriage. If neither question it then it enjoys the favour of the law and is considered valid.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 12, 2023 19:37:23 GMT
I look for truth wherever I can find it, and I am not willing to dismiss an idea simply because of who holds it. Even if this guy's credentials are a bit shaky, I'm interested in one thing and one thing only --- whether he could be right, either in whole or in part, in the contentions in the article. If someone comes up to me and says "the moon is made out of green cheese, and two plus two equals four", I'm not going to call his second contention into doubt just because the first one is clearly false.
Quite aside from the author of the article, Fr John Hardon said (again, sorry, no citation, I've looked in vain) that a marriage is not consummated until a natural generative act, not deliberately closed to the transmission of life, has been performed. This article goes a bit further than that. The part I find weakest, if the author is making this contention, is that the intent to use contraception sometime in the future, if that intention exists at the time of the marriage, and even if the marriage begins with natural generative acts, invalidates it.
I would be interested to see what traditional canon law commentaries (such as Woywod/Smith) have to say about this --- artificial birth control barely existed at the time of the 1918 CIC, all you had, basically, was condoms or coitus interruptus. Traditional moral theology texts, such as Jone or McHugh and Callan, might also be able to shed some light.
Please note that I put a question mark in the subject line. I'm not necessarily agreeing with everything he says, but neither am I necessarily disagreeing with at least some parts of it. My mind is open about the matter. If the intention to use contraception is a diriment impediment to validity, that'd be something good to know. Especially given the pushback that emerged at the time of Humanae vitae, that might be a hornet's nest that nobody wants to poke.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 13, 2023 3:26:09 GMT
Here is the citation, via Catholic Culture: www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=32780I wouldn't call Jeffrey Mirus, founder of Catholic Culture, a "crank". Far from it. And there's more: www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=5079As young Catholics marry and get divorced, some may be astounded to learn, through participation in the annulment process, that the Church may not consider their marriages to be consummated! The culturally shocking principle of canon law that a marriage is not consummated by contraceptive sexual intercourse is a big surprise to those with deficient religious education.9 There are probably many young marriages lacking a genuine sacramental bond because one or both spouses are always in a contraceptive mode, especially while continuing their education or starting a career. The fact that this fundamental Church teaching about the consummation of marriage is so little known testifies to the failure to present the fullness of Catholic moral philosophy concerning the marital act. Young Catholics should know, prior to marriage, that a real marriage bond results from keeping the marital act open to life, not from contraceptive sex. Here is a quintessential teaching moment that should occur much earlier in the lives of Catholics. As an aside, the prevalence of contraception may account in some cases for the ability of marriage tribunals to declare null short-lived marriages without children.Again, not sure if this is a can of worms the Church wants to open up, by listing this as among the grounds for nullity. And I seriously doubt couples are told in Pre-Cana, "hey, by the way, your marriage won't be consummated until such time as you refrain from contraceptive intercourse --- assuming that's in your plans --- and that could affect the validity of your marriage". If that is indeed true, they need to start telling people. And about the author: Mr. Oswald Sobrino is a free-lance writer trained as a lawyer. His articles have appeared in Catholic Faith and New Oxford Review. He is also a frequent contributor to the web magazine TCRNews.com. His law degree is from Loyola Law School (New Orleans), and his M.A. degree in economics is from Cleveland State University. He has taught economics at the university level and is presently pursuing graduate studies in pastoral theology. This is his first article for HPR.That stands for Homiletic and Pastoral Review, again, far from a fever swamp. When all is said and done, then, the core question is "does contraceptive marital intercourse consummate a marriage?". Fr Hardon says no. His opinion cannot be dismissed out of hand. The corollary question would be "how, then, can we say that contraceptive marital intercourse does consummate a marriage?". If, as noted above, some tribunals find for nullity for this reason, it gives one something to consider. Have those tribunals decided wrongly? I'm beginning to rethink my initial doubts about the article in my original post. All of a sudden, it's not sounding so Ron Conte-esque after all.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 13, 2023 8:35:24 GMT
And here's what the new and latest tool in apologetics, "Magisterium AI", has to say about the matter:
Does contraceptive sexual intercourse consummate a marriage?
According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, consummation of a marriage refers to the performance of a conjugal act between the spouses that is suitable for the procreation of offspring, which is the purpose of marriage 1. The Code of Canon Law states that a valid marriage between the baptized is called "ratum et consummatum" if the spouses have performed such an act 1.
However, it is important to note that the use of contraception is considered contrary to the natural order of human sexuality and the procreative purpose of marriage 2. The Church teaches that the use of contraception is morally wrong because it intentionally frustrates the natural potential for procreation and separates the unitive and procreative aspects of the marital act 2.
Therefore, if sexual intercourse is intentionally and consistently practiced with the use of contraception, it would not be considered a conjugal act suitable for the procreation of offspring, and thus would not consummate the marriage according to Catholic teaching. The act of contraception itself goes against the nature and purpose of marriage, which is ordered towards the procreation of children 2.
It is important to note that the presumption of consummation exists when the spouses have lived together after the marriage has been celebrated, unless proven otherwise 3. However, this presumption does not apply in cases where the spouses intentionally and consistently use contraception, as it indicates a deliberate intention to prevent the procreative aspect of the marital act.
In conclusion, according to Catholic Church teaching, sexual intercourse using contraception does not consummate a marriage because it goes against the natural order of human sexuality and the procreative purpose of marriage 1 2. The use of contraception intentionally frustrates the potential for procreation and separates the unitive and procreative aspects of the marital act 2.
References: Code of Canon Law 1061 §1 Code of Canon Law 1096 §1 Code of Canon Law 1061 §2
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 13, 2023 19:41:49 GMT
If the Church wanted to make it a ground for nullity, they would do so. Do you honestly think Jeffrey Mirus or whoever is the first human on earth ever to imagine this idea?
Also, if a man and woman are in a sexual relationship that involves having intercourse more than one or two times, there's an excellent chance that any artificial birth control they're trying to use will either not be used (forgotten or decided to skip it for any number of reasons) or will fail. The number of couples who reliably use artificial birth control every single time is likely below 1 percent. This is how we get unplanned pregnancies. And assuming that only a small percentage of these sex acts result in a pregnancy, there's a whole lotta sex-without-birth-control going on in the world. If a married couple has such sexual intercourse even ONE TIME, the marriage is consummated and the whole issue goes away.
What I want to know is, unless some couple is planning to annul their marriage, why is this issue of such great interest? Especially to the Jeffrey Miruses of the world who don't even know these couples? This inordinate interest in what married couples do in their bedroom and whether their marriages are consummated properly comes off as gross Ron Conte stuff, one step above hanging a bloody sheet out the window as proof the bride was a virgin.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 13, 2023 20:12:15 GMT
If the Church wanted to make it a ground for nullity, they would do so. Do you honestly think Jeffrey Mirus or whoever is the first human on earth ever to imagine this idea? Also, if a man and woman are in a sexual relationship that involves having intercourse more than one or two times, there's an excellent chance that any artificial birth control they're trying to use will either not be used (forgotten or decided to skip it for any number of reasons) or will fail. The number of couples who reliably use artificial birth control every single time is likely below 1 percent. You raise an interesting point. It would have to come down to intent. Couples who are sterile due to necessary medical intervention (hysterectomy, surgery to remove gonads, etc.), menopause, or even use of birth control pills for purely therapeutic purposes (e.g., to treat endometriosis), clearly cannot have sexual relations that are open to life --- it's impossible. Yet they do not will the contraceptive aspect. The Church already does have a canon that touches on this: Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.
The question then becomes "is a contraceptive act 'a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh' ?".And it's not just Jeffrey Mirus or the other two commentators. Father John Hardon is what I would call "big guns". Likewise, intent comes into play when the matter is posed the other way around --- does a couple, who intend to have contraceptive intercourse, end up performing the kind of conjugal act described in Canon 1061, when their method of contraception fails, and the act becomes, indeed, open to life despite their intentions and best efforts? At best, it's a gray area, and if the Church has indeed declared marriages null (or, rather, not consummated) where contraception has been used in each and every marital act, then there must be something to the argument. This would be a question for the Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith (or whatever they're calling it this week), but I doubt they would address it. Too much of a hot potato.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 13, 2023 20:29:24 GMT
I generally like Father Hardon, but him considering this concept as well shows even more that the idea has been kicking around for a very long time and the Church is simply not that interested in it. If you want to discuss actual canon law reasons why, there's a canon lawyer and at least two people trained in annulment practice on the other forum. They would know better than me or probably anybody else here.
In addition, Father Hardon had a number of ideas he got all worked up about to a degree that I find a bit extreme. One was the enneagram, another was Luisa Piccaretta's private revelations. (FWIW he and Luisa are both Servants of God as of now.) If he got similarly wound up over this nullity issue then that's another one to add to my list. I'm sure he meant well and I find his discourses on topics like the fruits of the Holy Spirit to be useful but such preoccupation with married couples' sex lives strikes me as weird and unseemly. Just tell the couples what they have to do to consummate in their marriage prep, it would take 10 seconds, and leave them to it.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 13, 2023 21:12:21 GMT
I generally like Father Hardon, but him considering this concept as well shows even more that the idea has been kicking around for a very long time and the Church is simply not that interested in it. If you want to discuss actual canon law reasons why, there's a canon lawyer and at least two people trained in annulment practice on the other forum. They would know better than me or probably anybody else here. In addition, Father Hardon had a number of ideas he got all worked up about to a degree that I find a bit extreme. One was the enneagram, another was Luisa Piccaretta's private revelations. (FWIW he and Luisa are both Servants of God as of now.) If he got similarly wound up over this nullity issue then that's another one to add to my list. I'm sure he meant well and I find his discourses on topics like the fruits of the Holy Spirit to be useful but such preoccupation with married couples' sex lives strikes me as weird and unseemly. Just tell the couples what they have to do to consummate in their marriage prep, it would take 10 seconds, and leave them to it. Quite right, all the Church would have to do, is to tell couples in the marriage preparation something like "just so you know, there is at least some doubt that a contraceptive act consummates a marriage, and some marriages, where contraception has been consistently employed, have been found ratum sed non consummatum in nullity proceedings for that reason". I don't know if that is ever mentioned, but I know it wasn't in my own marital preparations (Diocese of Arlington, 1993). I don't find it at all unseemly, to be concerned about the validity or invalidity of marriages, or to be concerned that people are committing acts that are mortally sinful in the objective order. One time a year or two ago, a priest in confession, aware of my circumstances (living as a divorced bachelor), out of the clear blue sky, asked me if I had any issues with purity. I wasn't the least bit offended, I simply replied "no, that's not an issue for me". But for many men (and even women) without a partner, it certainly is --- think of the unforgettable "contest" episode of Seinfeld (which is a deliciously funny show, basically a minstrel show highlighting the foibles of four self-absorbed Jewish and Jewish-adjacent New York urbanites, and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is a Catholic and Catholic-adjacent " Seinfeld on crack"). It's just good care of souls. He was just doing his job. As an aside, I find all of those personality-analysis-type exercises to be a bit silly --- the four temperaments, enneagrams, the Myers-Briggs test, and so on.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 13, 2023 22:03:28 GMT
With respect, HSD, you have always shown in your posts everywhere for years a bit of a focus on whether people are having sex correctly or consummating their marriages in the proper way or using birth control or not. This seems to go beyond any concern that you and your family are “following the rules” as it seems you are currently not in a relationship and your son is still a minor.
I appreciate that you don’t want others to sin, but honestly it comes off a bit odd at times, unless it is in response to some church acquaintance or work colleague who sits around discussing their personal birth control experiences. I’m sure such people exist, but fortunately I’ve not run into one and would not care to be involved in such an oversharing discussion outside of a mandatory pre-Cana class.
I know that sometimes people have past life experiences that causes them to have such focuses and I’m certainly not expecting anyone to give me an explanation why they post a lot about some topic that makes me raise my monocle. But it does come off as sex obsessed.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 13, 2023 22:27:50 GMT
With respect, HSD, you have always shown in your posts everywhere for years a bit of a focus on whether people are having sex correctly or consummating their marriages in the proper way or using birth control or not. This seems to go beyond any concern that you and your family are “following the rules” as it seems you are currently not in a relationship and your son is still a minor. I appreciate that you don’t want others to sin, but honestly it comes off a bit odd at times, unless it is in response to some church acquaintance or work colleague who sits around discussing their personal birth control experiences. I’m sure such people exist, but fortunately I’ve not run into one and would not care to be involved in such an oversharing discussion outside of a mandatory pre-Cana class. I know that sometimes people have past life experiences that causes them to have such focuses and I’m certainly not expecting anyone to give me an explanation why they post a lot about some topic that makes me raise my monocle. But it does come off as sex obsessed. I'm sorry it comes across to you that way, but I am just taking to heart the fact that all deliberate and completed sexual sins are, in the objective order, grave matter (thus mortal sin if the two other conditions obtain), as well as Our Lady of Fatima's admonition that "the sins that send more people to hell than any other sins are the sins of the flesh" (and, no, I don't think she was talking about gluttony, drunkenness, and substance abuse). Also, sexual sin brings all sorts of ills that other sins do not, such as children being conceived without proper provisions for their welfare and education, the perceived need for abortion, venereal diseases, the breakup of homes when one partner cheats on the other, men raising children that aren't theirs ( Deo gratias, there is now cheap, quick, easily accessible DNA testing that jerks a knot in the tails of the adulterers involved, babies love to drool and it'd be very easy for Dad to secure a saliva sample), the list goes on. Sexual sin endangers one's salvation and opens a Pandora's Box of ills. Everything Paul VI warned about in Humanae vitae has come true in spades. As to my own family, I have never hesitated to teach my son the intrinsic mortal sinfulness of illicit use of sexuality, including the use of contraception and sterilization. I have always encouraged him to come to me with any questions --- nothing is "off-limits", he asked me a very frank question the other day which I choose not to share (something about a certain aspect of married life) --- which he does quite often, and I pull no punches. If, later on in life, he chooses to violate the teachings of the Church, I will have done all I can do. He is aware of the grave sinfulness of his mother's illicit "remarriage", I've never pulled any punches about that either, and he deplores it. (We never see her anymore, so as a practical matter it's not something he's exposed to, and the annulment, for which she applied, is in process, it could go either way.) As to contraception, Paul VI called upon bishops and priests to make the teaching of Humanae vitae a priority, yet the practical response has been largely "crickets". I have never felt so much admiration for a priest in my whole life, as I did when our diocesan TLM priest admonished the congregation in a sermon that contraception is a mortal sin and that people who are using it must not receive communion. (Granted, he was preaching to a congregation that is almost totally, if not totally, adherent to HV.) All priests should do likewise. Somebody has to speak up and say something. Paul VI didn't want the response to be "crickets". (And, bless his life, on this issue, Pope Francis has reiterated the Church's traditional teaching.) And I shall keep talking about it until the mortician puts in the mouth former and sets my fingers in place. If even one person reads all of this, everything I've written over the years, and says, possibly after serious reflection (assuming they need to do that), "hey, I'd better stop doing that, I could go to hell for that", it will have all been worth it.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 14, 2023 0:39:41 GMT
I think where we differ is your contention that sexual sins bring some "special" kind of ills that other sins do not.
I don't see sexual sins as particularly different from any other type of sin. All categories of sin have some grave matter sins, and some sexual sins are probably not grave matter (for example, a short lapse of custody of the eyes in looking at an attractive person on the street). All categories of sin can bring down truly horrible consequences for either the sinner or others, but there will also be people who seem to sin without consequence on earth although they still offend the Lord. It does not matter whether the sin involves sex or money or power or violence or abusing some substance or being prideful or what.
I'm not one of these people who claims that what's really important is feeding the poor or doing social justice and the Lord then will give you a free pass to do what you want in the bedroom. But neither do I think sexual sin should be so emphasized over every other kind of awful sin.
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