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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2023 22:54:17 GMT
Today I went into Law School at the university I attend for my contract law lecture, as I do thrice a week at 8.30am. My lecturer is a very intense, and also a smug man. He usually wears very informal clothes to class. Today however he was wearing a three piece suit and a bowtie. At my university contract law is taught using the Socratic method. At the beginning of class he said, "I'm going to play you a video" and played the first three minutes of the 1973 American film The Paper Chase. It is about a student at Harvard University who, at his first contract class, has not read the case of Hawkins v. McGee and is humiliated by the professor when he can't answer the questions put to him using the Socratic method. After class he goes and throws up in the bathroom. When this video was finished, the lecturer turned it off and said "Now class, if you want to know why I am wearing a three piece suit today, it is because today we will start the real Socratic method." He had already been picking on people using the Socratic method, so I was unsure what the "real" Socratic method was in his view, but I would soon find out. This was the video he played us: www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx22TyCge7w. My lecturer announced that we would study today the 1929 American contract case of Hawkins v. McGee, despite not having mentioned it before nor telling us to read it. He then proceeded to interrogate the class about it. If a student could not answer the question he pointed his wand at the student next in line and asked the same until he got a satisfactory answer. At this point, I shall not deny, I was quite terrified, and when finally, having chewed through a row of students, he pointed his wand at khristosvoskres and bellowed "you!" I for a moment did not know what to say. The question was "why would the measure of damages be C - A when the doctor did not use the appropriate care or skill". I hestitated and said, in a resolutely uncertain voice, "C is the promised position after the contract" to which he replied in a loud, shouty voice, "ABSOLUTELY RIGHT" before moving onto a different student with a different question. After that I felt more relieved than I ever recall having felt relieved in the last couple of years. |
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Post by tth1 on Sept 15, 2023 13:30:16 GMT
The Socratic Method of Teaching is not always appropriate. It may be if it's a subject where the student's opinion is valid if the student can justify his opinion. It doesn't really work in subjects where students have to learn a body of facts. There would be little to be achieved by asking open questions on quantum mechanics to a first year class of physics students. On the other hand it might be valid to pose open questions on the themes of light and darkness in the play Macbeth to a class of English Literature students.
It appears to me this instructor also uses the humiliation method. The teaching by humilation method is really not a valid method of teaching. Students should come to a class eager to learn not to be terrified of coming to the attention of the instructor.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2023 18:16:08 GMT
The Socratic Method of Teaching is not always appropriate. It may be if it's a subject where the student's opinion is valid if the student can justify his opinion. It doesn't really work in subjects where students have to learn a body of facts. There would be little to be achieved by asking open questions on quantum mechanics to a first year class of physics students. On the other hand it might be valid to pose open questions on the themes of light and darkness in the play Macbeth to a class of English Literature students. It appears to me this instructor also uses the humiliation method. The teaching by humilation method is really not a valid method of teaching. Students should come to a class eager to learn not to be terrified of coming to the attention of the instructor. Yes, it can definitely be a problem. This method leads to an atmosphere of fear, I think. The problem is not so much that he expects us to be able to answer a body of facts, but that, as he teaches new material, he picks on students to, to effect, give him the answers before he himself explains them. In other words - to explain things we haven't yet been taught. For me this is unreasonable. |
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 15, 2023 18:51:53 GMT
Humilation teaching is unethical and unpleasant. Does your university have someone this approach to teaching can be reported to?
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Post by tth1 on Sept 16, 2023 12:52:36 GMT
The Socratic Method of Teaching is not always appropriate. It may be if it's a subject where the student's opinion is valid if the student can justify his opinion. It doesn't really work in subjects where students have to learn a body of facts. There would be little to be achieved by asking open questions on quantum mechanics to a first year class of physics students. On the other hand it might be valid to pose open questions on the themes of light and darkness in the play Macbeth to a class of English Literature students. It appears to me this instructor also uses the humiliation method. The teaching by humilation method is really not a valid method of teaching. Students should come to a class eager to learn not to be terrified of coming to the attention of the instructor. Yes, it can definitely be a problem. This method leads to an atmosphere of fear, I think. The problem is not so much that he expects us to be able to answer a body of facts, but that, as he teaches new material, he picks on students to, to effect, give him the answers before he himself explains them. In other words - to explain things we haven't yet been taught. For me this is unreasonable. It is very defnitely unreasonable. If you could give those answers you should be standing in his place and drawing his salary. |
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Post by tisbearself on Sept 16, 2023 15:26:38 GMT
I am very familiar with "The Paper Chase" as all US law students/ lawyers have been aware of it for many years and it was also one of my father's favorite movies. It is very dated being a 1970s movie. Few or no law school professors in the US, at least at the decent law schools that are not trying to flunk out half the class, taught in that manner even when I went to law school which was several decades ago. They usually either used some kind of modified Socratic method whereby they tell people in advance they will call on them or are just kinder about the whole thing, or else they handled their classes in a different manner entirely.
"The Paper Chase" is pretty much an artifact at this point. I hope the instructor knows that and perhaps communicated to his students that it is not a reality of most US legal education for at least 40 or 50 years now.
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 16, 2023 17:07:39 GMT
Telling the students you are essentially going to use bully tactics on them comes across to me as the methodology a narcissist in love with his perceived authority would use.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 18:38:19 GMT
I am very familiar with "The Paper Chase" as all US law students/ lawyers have been aware of it for many years and it was also one of my father's favorite movies. It is very dated being a 1970s movie. Few or no law school professors in the US, at least at the decent law schools that are not trying to flunk out half the class, taught in that manner even when I went to law school which was several decades ago. They usually either used some kind of modified Socratic method whereby they tell people in advance they will call on them or are just kinder about the whole thing, or else they handled their classes in a different manner entirely. "The Paper Chase" is pretty much an artifact at this point. I hope the instructor knows that and perhaps communicated to his students that it is not a reality of most US legal education for at least 40 or 50 years now. Most lecturers I have had (some of them are not actually professors) do not use the socratic method, or use it sparingly. However, this particular lecturer and the contract professor from the first part of the year loved using it in exactly the way it was used in The Paper Chase. The first professor I had this year was in his mid-70s, has been a lecturer at the law school since before The Paper Chase was even made, and often humiliated students who couldn't answer his questions. The current lecturer is less cruel to those who can't answer but he still seems to create an atmosphere of fear in the class. |
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 16, 2023 19:25:23 GMT
I think the first lecturer could probably stand to update his teaching style. The world does move on.
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Post by tisbearself on Sept 16, 2023 20:49:16 GMT
I am very familiar with "The Paper Chase" as all US law students/ lawyers have been aware of it for many years and it was also one of my father's favorite movies. It is very dated being a 1970s movie. Few or no law school professors in the US, at least at the decent law schools that are not trying to flunk out half the class, taught in that manner even when I went to law school which was several decades ago. They usually either used some kind of modified Socratic method whereby they tell people in advance they will call on them or are just kinder about the whole thing, or else they handled their classes in a different manner entirely. "The Paper Chase" is pretty much an artifact at this point. I hope the instructor knows that and perhaps communicated to his students that it is not a reality of most US legal education for at least 40 or 50 years now. Most lecturers I have had (some of them are not actually professors) do not use the socratic method, or use it sparingly. However, this particular lecturer and the contract professor from the first part of the year loved using it in exactly the way it was used in The Paper Chase. The first professor I had this year was in his mid-70s, has been a lecturer at the law school since before The Paper Chase was even made, and often humiliated students who couldn't answer his questions. The current lecturer is less cruel to those who can't answer but he still seems to create an atmosphere of fear in the class. That is just creepy. If you were in US and at any kind of a well-ranked law school, then the instructors would get bad reviews from the students and complaints to the administration. Something would probably end up being done the first time they "humiliated" any person who was not a white male. |
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 16, 2023 20:56:06 GMT
In the final year of my BA we had rather an odd bod teaching scriptwriting. He was a very odd man who refused to type feedback for students because it 'hurt his hands.' When people noted he could use speech to text stuff he complained this lacked 'immediacy'. He was frequently very late with marking work and showed up to seminars very late. He did it once when another tutor had to cover and that tutor was plainly not amused and almost stormed out of the room when the original tutor arrived halfway through the lecture looking half-cut. He never actually bullied someone as such but even so, his late marking and showing up to lectures with the smell of alcohol were enough to see him removed after about six months.
Where actually bullying is going on he shouldn't be teaching. Bear is no doubt familiar with the Amy Wax situation and how the university can't dismiss her but they did stop her teaching first-year students due to concerns about her attitude.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 21:03:42 GMT
Most lecturers I have had (some of them are not actually professors) do not use the socratic method, or use it sparingly. However, this particular lecturer and the contract professor from the first part of the year loved using it in exactly the way it was used in The Paper Chase. The first professor I had this year was in his mid-70s, has been a lecturer at the law school since before The Paper Chase was even made, and often humiliated students who couldn't answer his questions. The current lecturer is less cruel to those who can't answer but he still seems to create an atmosphere of fear in the class. That is just creepy. If you were in US and at any kind of a well-ranked law school, then the instructors would get bad reviews from the students and complaints to the administration. Something would probably end up being done the first time they "humiliated" any person who was not a white male. The first professor is the main contract law expert in New Zealand and wasn't afraid to make that known to students. He also failed 75% of the class in the test before scaling, and after reluctantly scaling up the grades he still failed 56% of the class, and out of around 400 students he gave only 5 or 10 grades between A- and A+. He also admitted that when he started at university (in the mid-1960s), he was terrified of being called on by lecturers but that he enjoys doing it himself. In 2020, he released a one hour podcast to his students (before he released the grades) reprimanding them for doing badly in the test and saying they should give up on the course. He received a huge amount of criticism for this and referred to it this year as "trying to help students to make the right decisions". Apparently, because he such an esteemed legal expert, the university won't do anything about it. Now, both this professor the current lecturer often point at students and identify them by their clothes, with the current lecturer sometimes adding his distaste at whatever the person is wearing. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 21:12:38 GMT
I have to believe that some of this is deliberate character acting. Honestly, normal people do not act like these lecturers.
The current lecturer often says "I know I said I wouldn't use the Socratic method without warning, but, I lied!"
My father did tell me that when he started at the University of Auckland in 1986, he was persecuted for weeks Socratically over a case called Cox v Attorney-General which in the subsequent 37 years has apparently not come up once in his legal career.
Anyway, why he had us study Hawkins v McGee despite it not being part of the course syllabus, I have no idea. By the way, one student referred to a case, I think it was that one, as "Hawkins versus McGee", to which he responded "Wrong, we don't tolerate Americanisms, that's an Americanism, it is always "Hawkins and McGee".
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 17, 2023 8:03:50 GMT
That just sounds like being a prat to be honest. Especially the bit about Americanisms. He could have simply pointed out it was incorrect terminology in New Zealand and normally used in the USA without making it sound so high-handed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2023 8:35:13 GMT
That just sounds like being a prat to be honest. Especially the bit about Americanisms. He could have simply pointed out it was incorrect terminology in New Zealand and normally used in the USA without making it sound so high-handed. Yes, it's all a bit strange. I found at university that some of the lecturers, particularly the older ones, are "characters", shall we say. The sort of people whose personality dictates it may be difficult for them to work in another kind of job. |
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