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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2023 19:29:38 GMT
Does that mean you do not want to live in a democracy? If a country's legislature has voted something into law then the head of state shouldn't be able to prevent it becoming law. If one man or woman can overrules the legislature that isn't democracy.
You're assuming that a Catholic monarch would act in the way you describe. However, that cannot be guaranteed. Just because a monarch is Catholic that doesn't make the monarch a good Catholic or a good statesman.
I want to live in a social order that promotes the Social Reign of Christ the King, whether that be a monarchy, democracy, or what have you. Such a social order would have safeguards against such things as legalizing abortion. Ultimately, the "safeguard" would be the popular will, conformed to the Mind of Christ, and led by people who are likewise conformed, all una voce dicentes.In the meantime, we hobble along with democracies (a form of government that Bellarmine defended) as well as monarchies that may or may not be Christian, and in the best case are notionally Catholic, such as Belgium or Spain, with little or no actual power. Seems there is no immanentizing the eschaton anytime soon. Yes, I long for such a social order. I actually wrote an article "80 Point Plan for the Ideal Christian State" in which I outline this. I like Salazar's Portugal as an ideal in that regard. Franco's Spain, one could say, had too much of a cult of personality but actually the Social Reign of Jesus Christ was there too. It is a pity of what has become of those two great Catholic Nations, which have lost the Catholic Unity.
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 17, 2023 20:03:56 GMT
That is in an ideal world. The US is like the UK one in which people of various faiths live.
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Post by homeschooldad on Sept 17, 2023 20:37:32 GMT
I want to live in a social order that promotes the Social Reign of Christ the King, whether that be a monarchy, democracy, or what have you. Such a social order would have safeguards against such things as legalizing abortion. Ultimately, the "safeguard" would be the popular will, conformed to the Mind of Christ, and led by people who are likewise conformed, all una voce dicentes.In the meantime, we hobble along with democracies (a form of government that Bellarmine defended) as well as monarchies that may or may not be Christian, and in the best case are notionally Catholic, such as Belgium or Spain, with little or no actual power. Seems there is no immanentizing the eschaton anytime soon. Yes, I long for such a social order. I actually wrote an article "80 Point Plan for the Ideal Christian State" in which I outline this. I like Salazar's Portugal as an ideal in that regard. Franco's Spain, one could say, had too much of a cult of personality but actually the Social Reign of Jesus Christ was there too. It is a pity of what has become of those two great Catholic Nations, which have lost the Catholic Unity. I'd be interested in reading that. I don't know if there are any character limits on posts here, but you could try posting it. You might break it up into parts, if one post would be too long. I'm sure it's good reading.
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Post by tth1 on Sept 18, 2023 13:36:36 GMT
Democracy is not the best, it is the least worst but I don't wish to live under a theocracy. Church and State have two different roles to play, but in a Catholic social order, the state, at the very least, would not oppose the Church, nor have any laws that were contrary to her teachings. You are asking for a theocracy even though you claim the Church and State would be different entitites. That's what they have in Iran. They have a government but it must subject its authority to the senior Muslim clerics.
If it's not a theocracy you can't have what you want. It would be entirely inappropriate to have a sovereign state in which live non-Catholic Christians, non-Christians and atheists and to impose Catholic theology on everyone.
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Post by tth1 on Sept 18, 2023 13:38:41 GMT
Democracy is not the best, it is the least worst but I don't wish to live under a theocracy. I suppose we could say that democracy is the best we can have.
I can't imagine the possibility of a perfect political system.
Like you, I wouldn't wish to live in a democracy.
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Post by Dominic on Sept 18, 2023 16:11:46 GMT
Seems there is no immanentizing the eschaton anytime soon. Ain't never gonna happen. Nowhere, nohow. In the early 90s, the Church in Poland was at the very height of its power and prestige, and the various parties were working out the basis for the new governmental system. JPII proposed a Christian national democracy with the Church given a formal place in the government. He was quickly and unceremoniously told to butt the hell out by all parties, including Solidarność. In fact, it was Lech Wałęsa himself who delivered the message loud and clear. If hyper-Catholic Poland at that point in history categorically rejected a role for the Church in governing the country, it's pretty clear that no one else anywhere else would every be interested in any sort of power sharing. Also, don't forget that the popes had their own country to rule for 1100 years. And failed miserably. There was never a golden age for the Papal States, nor even a silver or bronze age. Mostly it was mud and pointed sticks age. Rome was a backward cowtown steadily going downhill until the Renaissance, which came late to Rome. It got so bad that even the popes didn't want to live there, and abandoned it for almost two hundred years, preferring to reside in Viterbo, Orvieto, Perugia and, finally Avignon. When Bologna was incorporated into the papal states by Julius II, it went from a thriving renaissance city to a cultural backwater in just a few years as the best and brightest fled in droves, abandoning their homes rather than live under clerical domination. Outside of Rome, the best of times were when the popes totally forgot about the Papal States, which was mercifully very often. But even in the best of times, the Papal States were a dismal failure, and nobody except a few Deus Vult nutcases mourns their passing.
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Post by homeschooldad on Sept 18, 2023 17:41:41 GMT
Church and State have two different roles to play, but in a Catholic social order, the state, at the very least, would not oppose the Church, nor have any laws that were contrary to her teachings. You are asking for a theocracy even though you claim the Church and State would be different entitites. That's what they have in Iran. They have a government but it must subject its authority to the senior Muslim clerics.
If it's not a theocracy you can't have what you want. It would be entirely inappropriate to have a sovereign state in which live non-Catholic Christians, non-Christians and atheists and to impose Catholic theology on everyone.
A state in which there were no laws contrary to Catholic teaching would not be a theocracy. It would simply be that --- a state in which there were no laws contrary to Catholic teaching.
The laws could actually be silent on many things that are sins. There would be no question, for instance, of imposing a fine on someone who missed Mass on Sunday without cause. Most matters of the bedroom could also be treated as sins, not crimes, yes, even homosex between consenting adults. (Child exploitation and rape, needless to say, would still be criminal acts.) On most levels, a state that did not run contrary to Catholic principles would not necessarily be an oppressive place in which to live. One might look at Israel, and see whether gentiles who live there are forced to adhere to Judaism. Aside from stores being closed on Shabbos, I don't think gentiles live under any particular burden there, at least not as far as the law itself is concerned. (The Arab-Israeli conflicts there are socio-economic and ethnic, not religious.)
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Post by homeschooldad on Sept 18, 2023 17:52:20 GMT
Seems there is no immanentizing the eschaton anytime soon. Ain't never gonna happen. Nowhere, nohow. In the early 90s, the Church in Poland was at the very height of its power and prestige, and the various parties were working out the basis for the new governmental system. JPII proposed a Christian national democracy with the Church given a formal place in the government. He was quickly and unceremoniously told to butt the hell out by all parties, including Solidarność. In fact, it was Lech Wałęsa himself who delivered the message loud and clear. If hyper-Catholic Poland at that point in history categorically rejected a role for the Church in governing the country, it's pretty clear that no one else anywhere else would every be interested in any sort of power sharing. Also, don't forget that the popes had their own country to rule for 1100 years. And failed miserably. There was never a golden age for the Papal States, nor even a silver or bronze age. Mostly it was mud and pointed sticks age. Rome was a backward cowtown steadily going downhill until the Renaissance, which came late to Rome. It got so bad that even the popes didn't want to live there, and abandoned it for almost two hundred years, preferring to reside in Viterbo, Orvieto, Perugia and, finally Avignon. When Bologna was incorporated into the papal states by Julius II, it went from a thriving renaissance city to a cultural backwater in just a few years as the best and brightest fled in droves, abandoning their homes rather than live under clerical domination. Outside of Rome, the best of times were when the popes totally forgot about the Papal States, which was mercifully very often. But even in the best of times, the Papal States were a dismal failure, and nobody except a few Deus Vult nutcases mourns their passing. I don't think anyone, aside from, as you say, " Deus Vult nutcases", sees the Papal States as having been a particularly good idea. The present arrangement, with the Church having an independent enclave free from Italian jurisdiction (wouldn't mind seeing it be just a bit bigger, perhaps with some exclaves, which as a practical matter already exist, Castel Gandolfo et al), works just fine. It's not the Pope's job to fix potholes. I was in Poland in the early 1990s --- even got married there! --- and I well remember the debate. Back in the PRL (Warsaw Pact) days, Poland was fetishized in the Catholic media (such as Our Sunday Visitor) as being this loyal, obedient Catholic country (much as the poor "periphery" countries of the Global South are similarly fetishized today), and I once commented to my wife "you just pump a little more money, and a little more freedom, into this place, and it'll be as bad as anyplace else". Sure enough, that's precisely what happened. One Sunday we went to Mass, and an attractive young woman showed up in a skirt all the way up to her you-know-what, and I said "see what I mean?". She had no choice but to agree with me. She told me that one of her cousins and his wife used contraception, under the rubric of "it is modern times", and I asked her if "modern times" will keep them cool in hell. Again, she had to agree.
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Post by Dominic on Sept 18, 2023 20:32:19 GMT
I was in Poland in the early 1990s --- even got married there! --- and I well remember the debate. I LIVED in Poland, from 2002 to 2014, and visit often. Speak the language and read ALL the Catholic press cover to cover during that time, from Tygodnik Powszechny to Nasz Dziennik (which I call Nasz Nocnik). I saw the Polish Catholic Church, both the episcopate at Ojciec Dyrektor and ilk, actively do everything in their power to alienate and drive away the young, and I saw the young turn their backs on that whole shitshow, never ever to return. If there is a Guinness World Record for shooting oneself in the foot, the unchallenged champion is without a doubt the Polish Catholic Church since 1989. To sit on a vast mountain of general goodwill and squander it all away was a sin. Especially considering that the POPE was Polish. Now the Church is bitterly detested by the vast majority of people under 40. It's only a matter of time before demographic replacement brings about the collapse of the Church there, and it's going to fall a lot harder than it did in Spain or Ireland. More like Quebec in the 1950s.
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Post by homeschooldad on Sept 18, 2023 23:41:40 GMT
I was in Poland in the early 1990s --- even got married there! --- and I well remember the debate. I LIVED in Poland, from 2002 to 2014, and visit often. Speak the language and read ALL the Catholic press cover to cover during that time, from Tygodnik Powszechny to Nasz Dziennik (which I call Nasz Nocnik). I saw the Polish Catholic Church, both the episcopate at Ojciec Dyrektor and ilk, actively do everything in their power to alienate and drive away the young, and I saw the young turn their backs on that whole shitshow, never ever to return. If there is a Guinness World Record for shooting oneself in the foot, the unchallenged champion is without a doubt the Polish Catholic Church since 1989. To sit on a vast mountain of general goodwill and squander it all away was a sin. Especially considering that the POPE was Polish. Now the Church is bitterly detested by the vast majority of people under 40. It's only a matter of time before demographic replacement brings about the collapse of the Church there, and it's going to fall a lot harder than it did in Spain or Ireland. More like Quebec in the 1950s. You might be right. Standing by the Church during a time of oppression, while praiseworthy, isn't quite the same thing as internalizing the Faith and sticking by it regardless of how free or more prosperous a society might become. As I'm sure you know, when Poland was finally able to open up to the free world, they went more or less "buck wild", and if the Church became as overbearing as you describe, that wouldn't have helped matters any.
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Post by Dominic on Sept 19, 2023 0:26:34 GMT
You might be right. Standing by the Church during a time of oppression, while praiseworthy, isn't quite the same thing as internalizing the Faith and sticking by it regardless of how free or more prosperous a society might become. As I'm sure you know, when Poland was finally able to open up to the free world, they went more or less "buck wild", and if the Church became as overbearing as you describe, that wouldn't have helped matters any. I don't know what you mean by "buck wild". I'm guessing you don't read Polish, so I found a couple of articles in English that show just how bad the reputation of the Church has suffered, and how little hope there is that things will ever improve. Even leading theologians have thrown in the towel, left the priesthood, and even left the Church entirely. And the saddest part is that there is no one else who can be blamed; the damage was entirely self-inflicted. I was in Wrocław once waiting on a train that had been delayed several hours. One of the other passengers waiting was a young Franciscan, about 24-25, so I invited him for a coffee in a nearby cafe. He ended up pouring out his heart to me about his despair, and how he feared being "the guy who turns off the lights after everyone else leaves". Basically, the only thing that kept him in the order was the fear of breaking his parents' and grandparents' hearts. He said other kids his age were practically unanimous in asking him whether he was nuts for "throwing his life away". He knew that the Church's forays into partisan politics were suicidal. I encouraged him as best I could, but I often wonder whether he is still in the order, or whether it got to be too much for him. That was nine years ago and I think the latter is more probable. Either way, I hope it works out for him. notesfrompoland.com/2020/11/16/only-9-of-young-people-in-poland-view-catholic-church-positively-finds-poll/notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/03/devastating-decline-in-religious-practice-among-young-poles-says-catholic-primate/
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Post by homeschooldad on Sept 19, 2023 1:34:19 GMT
You might be right. Standing by the Church during a time of oppression, while praiseworthy, isn't quite the same thing as internalizing the Faith and sticking by it regardless of how free or more prosperous a society might become. As I'm sure you know, when Poland was finally able to open up to the free world, they went more or less "buck wild", and if the Church became as overbearing as you describe, that wouldn't have helped matters any. I don't know what you mean by "buck wild". I'm guessing you don't read Polish, so I found a couple of articles in English that show just how bad the reputation of the Church has suffered, and how little hope there is that things will ever improve. Even leading theologians have thrown in the towel, left the priesthood, and even left the Church entirely. And the saddest part is that there is no one else who can be blamed; the damage was entirely self-inflicted. I was in Wrocław once waiting on a train that had been delayed several hours. One of the other passengers waiting was a young Franciscan, about 24-25, so I invited him for a coffee in a nearby cafe. He ended up pouring out his heart to me about his despair, and how he feared being "the guy who turns off the lights after everyone else leaves". Basically, the only thing that kept him in the order was the fear of breaking his parents' and grandparents' hearts. He said other kids his age were practically unanimous in asking him whether he was nuts for "throwing his life away". He knew that the Church's forays into partisan politics were suicidal. I encouraged him as best I could, but I often wonder whether he is still in the order, or whether it got to be too much for him. That was nine years ago and I think the latter is more probable. Either way, I hope it works out for him. notesfrompoland.com/2020/11/16/only-9-of-young-people-in-poland-view-catholic-church-positively-finds-poll/notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/03/devastating-decline-in-religious-practice-among-young-poles-says-catholic-primate/I read it to some extent, took two years of Polish at university level, but it is a very difficult language, and two years still leaves one with huge gaps in understanding. Sad to say, an article in English is much preferable to me. Just guessing, I would say that the Polish Church had no idea how to deal with suddenly being absolutely free, and made some tragic mistakes. It's not as though they had a blueprint for such a thing. "Buck wild" is an idiomatic American way of saying that someone, confronted with hitherto forbidden choices, goes completely off the deep end, and is given to excesses, sometimes tragic ones. University freshmen, away from home for the first time, are a prime example of what I'm talking about. Students on spring break at one of many beach towns are another.
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Post by Dominic on Sept 19, 2023 2:51:23 GMT
I read it to some extent, took two years of Polish at university level, but it is a very difficult language, and two years still leaves one with huge gaps in understanding. Sad to say, an article in English is much preferable to me. Just guessing, I would say that the Polish Church had no idea how to deal with suddenly being absolutely free, and made some tragic mistakes. It's not as though they had a blueprint for such a thing. "Buck wild" is an idiomatic American way of saying that someone, confronted with hitherto forbidden choices, goes completely off the deep end, and is given to excesses, sometimes tragic ones. University freshmen, away from home for the first time, are a prime example of what I'm talking about. Students on spring break at one of many beach towns are another. Yes, the Church did go "buck wild" after the transition, embroiling itself in countless financial and sexual scandals, including with minors, and worse, covering up its misdeeds and viciously retaliating against those who wouldn't keep silent. That's how it lost the trust of the public and its moral credibility. Bishops and clerics thought they could avoid public scrutiny and quash any criticism with impunity, and of course took advantage of that situation to go on a rampant free-for-all. It didn't take long for the laity to catch on what was up, especially the young who had no memory of the goodwill the Church had built up during communist times. And when one domino fell, they all fell. This couldn't be explained away as the sporadic acts of a few bad apples; it was pervasive and systemic, and still is. And enmeshing itself with the political parties that are most detested by the overwhelming majority of the youth was indeed suicidal. At this point, the bishops know that their time is almost up, and they are making as much hay as they can while the sun is still up. None of them has the slightest clue how to turn things around, and, frankly, I doubt that there is any way other than just letting it all collapse, rot and be forgotten so that sometime, far in the future, the seed can be replanted. Once you lose trust, it's often impossible to regain it. What makes me mad is that they had it made in the shade in '89, and went on to squander everything with frivolous abandon, and continue to do so. And that the damage was entirely self-inflicted. They could have built something wonderful and great, and instead created a vast toxic waste dump that will glow in the dark for ages. Like those British people who win 20 million on the lottery and end up dirt broke within two years. You just can't bring yourself to feel sorry for them.
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Post by homeschooldad on Sept 19, 2023 3:40:56 GMT
I read it to some extent, took two years of Polish at university level, but it is a very difficult language, and two years still leaves one with huge gaps in understanding. Sad to say, an article in English is much preferable to me. Just guessing, I would say that the Polish Church had no idea how to deal with suddenly being absolutely free, and made some tragic mistakes. It's not as though they had a blueprint for such a thing. "Buck wild" is an idiomatic American way of saying that someone, confronted with hitherto forbidden choices, goes completely off the deep end, and is given to excesses, sometimes tragic ones. University freshmen, away from home for the first time, are a prime example of what I'm talking about. Students on spring break at one of many beach towns are another. Yes, the Church did go "buck wild" after the transition, embroiling itself in countless financial and sexual scandals, including with minors, and worse, covering up its misdeeds and viciously retaliating against those who wouldn't keep silent. That's how it lost the trust of the public and its moral credibility. Bishops and clerics thought they could avoid public scrutiny and quash any criticism with impunity, and of course took advantage of that situation to go on a rampant free-for-all. It didn't take long for the laity to catch on what was up, especially the young who had no memory of the goodwill the Church had built up during communist times. And when one domino fell, they all fell. This couldn't be explained away as the sporadic acts of a few bad apples; it was pervasive and systemic, and still is. And enmeshing itself with the political parties that are most detested by the overwhelming majority of the youth was indeed suicidal. At this point, the bishops know that their time is almost up, and they are making as much hay as they can while the sun is still up. None of them has the slightest clue how to turn things around, and, frankly, I doubt that there is any way other than just letting it all collapse, rot and be forgotten so that sometime, far in the future, the seed can be replanted. Once you lose trust, it's often impossible to regain it. What makes me mad is that they had it made in the shade in '89, and went on to squander everything with frivolous abandon, and continue to do so. And that the damage was entirely self-inflicted. They could have built something wonderful and great, and instead created a vast toxic waste dump that will glow in the dark for ages. Like those British people who win 20 million on the lottery and end up dirt broke within two years. You just can't bring yourself to feel sorry for them. Actually, I was referring to the Polish people --- especially the young --- going "buck wild", not the Church, but I hear what you are saying. Sounds like the Church didn't know how to handle its new-found freedom either. What you describe in the Church in Poland is a good way to feed anticlericalism, which in some cultures is just something waiting to erupt. Quebec comes immediately to mind.
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Post by Dominic on Sept 19, 2023 4:17:26 GMT
What you describe in the Church in Poland is a good way to feed anticlericalism, which in some cultures is just something waiting to erupt. Quebec comes immediately to mind. Indeed. Quebec is precisely what I'm envisioning, too. It's been seventy years since the Church fell there and the brand is still skunked as ever. I visit Montreal and go fishing in the in the lakes nearby a couple of times each summer, and I've learned to assiduously avoid the topic of religion altogether. It still provokes foaming-at-the-mouth rants even after all these years. The churches are almost empty on Sunday. That's why I said it would take ages for the bitterness and resentment in Poland to wear off. The wounds are deep, and will take forever to heal. Like Quebec, I think that the crash will be sudden and drastic. Like going to bed on one planet and waking up in a completely different one. I think that part of it has do with how in Poland, like Quebec, the Catholic Church is really the only game in town. Other religions are microscopic and geographically limited by comparison. So it's a choice between Roman Catholicism or no religion at all. In the States, one has tons of other religious groups to choose from if one decides to leave one's church. One doesn't feel forced to abandon religion altogether. That explains why the collapse was so sudden in Spain, Ireland and Chile, too. Also, if one leaves one church for another, there is a higher chance of reverting than if one leaves religion altogether. As covid showed, once the churchgoing habit is broken, it's really hard to re-establish again. Add to that that alienating the youth brings on a snowball effect from generation to generation. Each generation starts with a lower proportion of the population brought up in the Church, so the loss is cumulative.
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