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Post by Dominic on Oct 11, 2023 5:19:43 GMT
They hate "Christianity" with a passion, the pseudo-religious perversity that is nothing but an excuse for homophobia, misogyny, xenophobia, and hatred that has, unfortunately, sullied the reputation of real Christianity in the public eye and is the greatest enemy of true Christianity. Too many LGBT activists use words like "homophobia", "victimization", "discrimination", etc. to silence anybody who disagrees with their self-absorbed, hedonistic lifestyle. Is criticism of Putin anti-Russian prejudice? Is criticism of black gangsters anti-Black prejudice? Sorry, but no one is buying that anymore. And when an octogenarian Pope in Rome isn't buying it, either, and telling you where you can stick it, you know you've lost the game. If you want someone to blame for your defeat, blame Cardinal Burke and Company. They're the ones who handed the Pope the lamp, and dared him to rub it. He said "Sure, why not?", rubbed away, and the genie flew out. And now there standing with Pikachu faces begging him to put the cork back in. Well, the genie's out, and the writing on the wall is clear how this is going to play out. All the king's horses, etc. It's only a matter of time before same-sex marriage, married priests and women priests, and communion for the divorced and remarried are all accepted by the Church. And not much time, now, from the looks of it, thanks to Cardinal Burke and Company. They've just handed the progressives the whole enchilada and said "Bon apetit!" The "Church" you seek is dead, slain by your own side, and is not coming back. Long live the Church! And long live Pope Francis!
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Post by tth1 on Oct 11, 2023 14:26:08 GMT
Too many LGBT activists use words like "homophobia", "victimization", "discrimination", etc. to silence anybody who disagrees with their self-absorbed, hedonistic lifestyle. Is criticism of Putin anti-Russian prejudice? Is criticism of black gangsters anti-Black prejudice? Sorry, but no one is buying that anymore. And when an octogenarian Pope in Rome isn't buying it, either, and telling you where you can stick it, you know you've lost the game. If you want someone to blame for your defeat, blame Cardinal Burke and Company. They're the ones who handed the Pope the lamp, and dared him to rub it. He said "Sure, why not?", rubbed away, and the genie flew out. And now there standing with Pikachu faces begging him to put the cork back in. Well, the genie's out, and the writing on the wall is clear how this is going to play out. All the king's horses, etc. It's only a matter of time before same-sex marriage, married priests and women priests, and communion for the divorced and remarried are all accepted by the Church. And not much time, now, from the looks of it, thanks to Cardinal Burke and Company. They've just handed the progressives the whole enchilada and said "Bon apetit!" The "Church" you seek is dead, slain by your own side, and is not coming back. Long live the Church! And long live Pope Francis! Don't be too sure. Despite all the hullabaloo Pope Francis hasn't really changed any Church doctrine. Unfortunately, though, he tends to leave things unanswered, leading many to spin their own interpretations.
When Pope Francis has died, his successor may choose to undo things that Pope Francis has done. The current Holy father has done this to St John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. His own policies are subject to change by the next pope.
I also pray the next pope gives us clarity on the Church's teaching rather than giving Jesuitical answers.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 11, 2023 15:29:16 GMT
Don't be too sure. Despite all the hullabaloo Pope Francis hasn't really changed any Church doctrine. Unfortunately, though, he tends to leave things unanswered, leading many to spin their own interpretations. When Pope Francis has died, his successor may choose to undo things that Pope Francis has done. The current Holy father has done this to St John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. His own policies are subject to change by the next pope. I also pray the next pope gives us clarity on the Church's teaching rather than giving Jesuitical answers. Don't be so sure. Pope Francis's opponents have been working real hard to question and undermine papal authority, so that if a new pope should try to reverse his reforms, he will find it almost impossible to reassert papal authority. Sorry, but Pope Francis's detractors have really shot themselves in the foot with their "dubia". The genie they set loose is bigger than any Pope, and he's here to stay. It's like a ratchet: it only moves in one direction. And it's also like dominos: once one falls, they all fall. Burke and Company shouldn't have bumped the table and made that first domino topple. As for the "clarity" conservatives desire, Pope Francis has already given them a perfectly clear answer. It's just not the one they wanted. "Lack of clarity" is just conservative talk for "Boo, hoo, hoo".
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Post by tth1 on Oct 12, 2023 12:07:32 GMT
Don't be too sure. Despite all the hullabaloo Pope Francis hasn't really changed any Church doctrine. Unfortunately, though, he tends to leave things unanswered, leading many to spin their own interpretations. When Pope Francis has died, his successor may choose to undo things that Pope Francis has done. The current Holy father has done this to St John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. His own policies are subject to change by the next pope. I also pray the next pope gives us clarity on the Church's teaching rather than giving Jesuitical answers. Don't be so sure. Pope Francis's opponents have been working real hard to question and undermine papal authority, so that if a new pope should try to reverse his reforms, he will find it almost impossible to reassert papal authority. Sorry, but Pope Francis's detractors have really shot themselves in the foot with their "dubia". The genie they set loose is bigger than any Pope, and he's here to stay. It's like a ratchet: it only moves in one direction. And it's also like dominos: once one falls, they all fall. Burke and Company shouldn't have bumped the table and made that first domino topple. As for the "clarity" conservatives desire, Pope Francis has already given them a perfectly clear answer. It's just not the one they wanted. "Lack of clarity" is just conservative talk for "Boo, hoo, hoo". Submitting dubia to the Apostolic See is nothing new. Refusing to respond to them is new.
Asking for clarity is not whinging. Catholics have a right to it.
Pope Francis has given "a perfectly clear answer"? I'd like to be cited an example.
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 12, 2023 12:36:03 GMT
It's only a matter of time before same-sex marriage, married priests and women priests, and communion for the divorced and remarried are all accepted by the Church. And not much time, now, from the looks of it, thanks to Cardinal Burke and Company. They've just handed the progressives the whole enchilada and said "Bon apetit!" The "Church" you seek is dead, slain by your own side, and is not coming back. Long live the Church! And long live Pope Francis! Most predictions about the future turn out to be ridiculously wrong. E.g. some fashionable 1920s intellectuals were certain that in 100 years the whole world will be communist. Also, I am not a traditionalist like you think. I think there is wisdom on both liberal and conservative sides.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 12, 2023 17:40:58 GMT
Submitting dubia to the Apostolic See is nothing new. Refusing to respond to them is new. Asking for clarity is not whinging. Catholics have a right to it. Pope Francis has given "a perfectly clear answer"? I'd like to be cited an example. Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth: www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2023-10/pope-francis-responds-to-dubia-of-five-cardinals.htmlCan't get any clearer than that! In plain, simple ecclesiastical Latin, it unambiguously states, "Sorry, boys! No candy for you!" And the cardinals understood it perfectly well, too. That's why they're throwing a temper tantrum, like toddlers in the candy aisle at Walmart. Poor, poor babies! Cry me a river, kiddos! And there's no Mommy to run to when mean ole Daddy won't give them the tootsie rolls they want. Nobody's fooled by their "confusion". Least of all the Jesuit-in-Chief. The real mystery I would like to see cleared up is why three nonagenarians and two septuagenarians are acting like toddlers.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 12, 2023 18:20:33 GMT
Also, I am not a traditionalist like you think. I think there is wisdom on both liberal and conservative sides. Nor am I the stereotypical progressive you might think I am. I'm very well read in Church and medieval history, and treasure all the glorious things the Church has given us just as much as I deplore the abominable things. As far as wisdom on both sides, I agree. But this morbid obsession with the intimate details of other people's love lives is tasteless, downright creepy, and supremely foolish. And it's killing not only the Catholic Church, but all of Christianity. I'm glad Pope Francis is disgusted as well and is pulling us out of that sordid business. It's like a cancerous tumor. If we don't cut it out, the Church is done for.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 12, 2023 18:57:14 GMT
It's only a matter of time before same-sex marriage, married priests and women priests, and communion for the divorced and remarried are all accepted by the Church. And not much time, now, from the looks of it, thanks to Cardinal Burke and Company. They've just handed the progressives the whole enchilada and said "Bon apetit!" The "Church" you seek is dead, slain by your own side, and is not coming back. Long live the Church! And long live Pope Francis! Most predictions about the future turn out to be ridiculously wrong. E.g. some fashionable 1920s intellectuals were certain that in 100 years the whole world will be communist. Also, I am not a traditionalist like you think. I think there is wisdom on both liberal and conservative sides. It's really very simple. - Married priests all across the mainstream of the Roman Rite could happen tomorrow. It's a disciplinary matter, not a doctrinal one. As a practical matter, there already are married priests in the Roman Rite, usually those who were ministers in other Christian confessions, converted to Catholicism, and chose to offer themselves as Catholic priests. Father Dwight Longenecker comes immediately to mind. There are others.
- Communion for the divorced and remarried [sic] is ultimately a matter of casuistry. Those in Josephite marriages may receive communion, though in some cases it might have to be administered privately, to avoid scandal. As to something falling short of the traditional Josephite (i.e., celibate) marriages, there can and should be "accompaniment", to use the current buzzword, to help them achieve this ideal. On that point, I am not quite as troubled by Amoris laetitia as the typical traditionalist, orthodox Catholic might be. People get themselves into all sorts of complicated situations, such as a couple who marries outside the Church, then one spouse seeks to make things right, but they have children born in that illicit union, perhaps a spouse who doesn't wish complete continence, and so on. More could I say.
- As to same-sex marriage and women priests, that, too, is very simple. Any Pope who would teach that these two things are acceptable would become a public and pertinacious heretic, and many if not most schools of thought say that he would then cease to be Pope. His heresies certainly would not bind in conscience. There are variations on that theme (Bellarmine, Suarez, probably others). The Church would be where the traditional Faith is, Pope or no Pope. The Pope is the servant of the Faith, not its master, certainly not its creator.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 12, 2023 21:06:18 GMT
Don't be so sure. Pope Francis's opponents have been working real hard to question and undermine papal authority, so that if a new pope should try to reverse his reforms, he will find it almost impossible to reassert papal authority. Sorry, but Pope Francis's detractors have really shot themselves in the foot with their "dubia". The genie they set loose is bigger than any Pope, and he's here to stay. It's like a ratchet: it only moves in one direction. And it's also like dominos: once one falls, they all fall. Burke and Company shouldn't have bumped the table and made that first domino topple. As for the "clarity" conservatives desire, Pope Francis has already given them a perfectly clear answer. It's just not the one they wanted. "Lack of clarity" is just conservative talk for "Boo, hoo, hoo". Submitting dubia to the Apostolic See is nothing new. Refusing to respond to them is new.
Asking for clarity is not whinging. Catholics have a right to it.
Pope Francis has given "a perfectly clear answer"? I'd like to be cited an example.
Questions of future Popes reversing this or that actually bring out what I see as a very healthy phenomenon in Catholic discourse in the Church today, largely driven by engaged laity. That phenomenon is to look at the Faith itself, rather than looking to this Pope or that one as some kind of arbiter of truth, as though he were like, let's say, the "Seer, Prophet, and Revelator" of the Latter-day Saints sect. The truth never changes, and the Pope is merely the custodian of it. True can never become false, good can never become bad, right can never become wrong (and vice versa). The promulgation of Humanae vitae in 1968 seems to have been the watershed. Paul VI clearly explained, in a way that had not been nearly as fully elucidated up to that point, why contraception is both intrinsically evil and gravely sinful. True, he had a commission that was imploring him to decide otherwise, but they were wrong and he was right. He created nothing new, but merely took the issue apart, dissected it, and gave us what we have today. His logic was unassailable. Yet this was not what the world wanted to hear --- in the West, the collective response was more like "oh, hell no!". And it was not merely a matter of discipline, pastoral practice, or judgment upon what was appropriate for the Church of our time (such as was the decision to revise the Roman Missal, for instance), it concerned a fine point of moral theology, presented with the laser-sharp precision that was needed. I read recently where some churchmen asked him simply to reiterate the traditional teaching without explanation or analysis, but he did not do that, no, he took his time, and in the end, said in effect, "the deliberate and willful separation of the unitive and procreative ends is intrinsically disordered and contrary to natural law, and here's why". We do not accept this on the Pope's authority, but rather by the reasons given, and good, solid reasons they were. For the first time in Church history of which I am aware, you had a stark cleavage between a moral teaching of the Church and the people's assent to it. The response of some was to assert papal authority, and to say "if the Pope says it, it's true", which gave rise to organizations such as Catholics United for the Faith (CUF), which was founded in the wake of HV and largely in response to it. But then the question is whether something is true because the Pope says it is true, or because it is true. The Pope does not create truth, indeed, he cannot. Fast-forward to the 21st century. We have a Pope who some have charged with being a heretic. Let's suppose he is. Let's suppose that he has taught something that is, in fact, false. Then we are not bound to say "truth has changed because the Pope says so". No, the truth remains what it always was. He may have lost the papal office by becoming a heretic. Opinions vary on how, when, and if that can take place. But the faithful have nothing to fear --- simply adhere to the truth. Now, to be fair, in actual practice, Catholics have not always been very good at seeing truth apart from what someone in authority tells them. When they are challenged, they often cannot really give reasons why the truth is, indeed, true, they just respond with something such as "I don't know, but that is what I was always taught". They've lost the argument right then and there. And, God forbid, if someone whom they've always trusted to teach them the truth does, indeed, teach them error, then they're toast. They have nothing to appeal to, except the authority of that person who taught them. Today, you have a growing number of engaged, well-informed, motivated laity who have studied the Faith, studied what the Church has always believed, and who are able to see through error, and to question it, not just based upon appeals to authority, but upon the truth itself. You have this one, or that one, who speaks up and says "hey, this isn't right", and they are shouted down by some and seen as "having gone over to the dark side", as it were, having challenged the authority of this teacher or that one. But others can see clearly and say "hey, you're right, this isn't right". And that's where we are right now. Galatians 1:8 --- But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 12, 2023 22:27:53 GMT
What's more likely to happen, at least for the time being, is that the rules will remain on the books, but just not be enforced anymore. As is the case with birth control. Blessings of same-sex couples are already the case in Germany, and they will no doubt spread elsewhere, especially since the Pope essentially gave the green light with his answers to the dubia. Step by step, the outcome is clear. Like I said, it's like a ratchet: it only works in one direction. Demographic replacement will seal the deal.
Except for a few hardliners, no one has any intention of returning to the bad old days. Bishops who try to enforce the rules will not find any support coming from Rome, or from the laity in the pews. Anyone who calls the Pope a heretic will find themselves on Craggy Island or out of a job entirely, or just politely indulged, humored, and then ignored, like the cranky uncle at the Thanksgiving dinner table.
As for blogger fantasies about deposing a Pope, there is absolutely no way to do that. His power is absolute in this case.
If, say, a bunch of dissident bishops or cardinals were to try to depose him, he could simply depose them and then they wouldn't have any standing. Exactly like Pope Eugenius IV did when the rump Council of Basel (Ferrara) deposed him as a heretic in 1439. Since then, that matter isn't even up for serious discussion, regardless of what your fave bloggers and armchair canon lawyers all say. All bishops and cardinals hold their positions at the sole whim of the Pope.
You forget that the Pope is also a head of state, and an absolute monarch, by international treaty. That means he gets the house. Not only in Vatican City, but everywhere he is acknowledged by treaty or concordat. No one can legally wrest that away from him as long as he lives.
As for the cardinals voting in the next conclave, they're mostly quite happy with this turn of events. It gives them great freedom, and they're likely to elect someone who will continue along the path that Pope Francis has staked out. Few have any appetite for another Pope Benedict XVI. It's no accident that all of the five dubia cardinals are either nonagenarians, or have been sidelined.
Few sitting bishops or cardinals are going to risk losing their cushy jobs or fat retirement packages over something they know they can't win anyway. You might see a couple of the loopier ones head out and start their own little sede sects and cults, like Lefebvre did. But they're not going to gather much of a following, they're not going to be unified, nor will they have any legal claim to Church property or office. They're more likely to end up as isolated cranks, like Vigano. Or a ragtag bunch of pathetic parody religions, like the Palmarians.
I've got to admire Pope Francis. He doesn't play hardball unless he's challenged to, but when he does play, he plays for keeps. After all, it's his ball, his bat, his field, and his rules. And he's the umpire, too. Go, Team Francis!
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Post by ralfy on Oct 13, 2023 1:21:31 GMT
We might be looking at traditionalism driven by modernism, i.e., the latter as part of being more informed (the laity having greater access to Scriptures and Church documents) but the former characterized by the opposite (for centuries, the laity was not allowed to read Scriptures unsupervised, and information wasn't widely disseminated quickly, if at all).
In addition comes beliefs related to liberal democracy (e.g., approval by the majority) vs. the Papacy as a monarchy, and so on.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 13, 2023 10:57:34 GMT
We might be looking at traditionalism driven by modernism, i.e., the latter as part of being more informed (the laity having greater access to Scriptures and Church documents) but the former characterized by the opposite (for centuries, the laity was not allowed to read Scriptures unsupervised, and information wasn't widely disseminated quickly, if at all). In addition comes beliefs related to liberal democracy (e.g., approval by the majority) vs. the Papacy as a monarchy, and so on. You're on the right track, and that has been going going on slowly since the printing press, or rather, since the Paris Bibles of the 1200s. But the internet really exploded any hope of containing information, which culminated in the sex and financial abuse scandals, not only in the Catholic Church, but in religious groups of all sorts. Also, people, especially young people, now can fact check information they hear in real time, and are not so easily bamboozled by specious claims. They can access horror stories about clerical abuse from all over the world with a few key strokes, in an instant. All of this has severely eroded clerical credibility, trustworthiness and authority, especially in the area of human sexuality and relations, the one area that remained more or less under their control. This caused massive disaffiliation as the Church and other religious groups struggled to justify the basis for its authority in this field, largely failing, much as previous waves of disaffiliation were brought on by the Church's failure to justify its forays into secular politics. The Church is being forced to adapt to this new reality. Pope Francis understands that the playing field has changed, and has the courage to take up the ball and stay in the game. His opponents think they can just ignore the massive civilization changes that are taking place, and think that they can still command the authority they once had, or regain what has been lost. Of course, that is not possible. I was reading a interview with the new Polish cardinal Pope Francis just created, Cardinal Gregorz Ryś. He said something quite profound. He said that we were not living in an epoch of change anymore, but in a change of epoch. He hit the nail on the head. As for your comment on democracy, that is spot on, too. Pope Francis realizes that the only authority one has is the authority that his followers cede him, not the authority he claims for himself. The hierarchical clerical model that has worked since Constantine is dead, and he and the Church have to invent a new model to replace it, or be mercilessly swept aside into the dustbin of history. And he realizes that his predecessors were late to the game, and he has to make up for lost time. He realizes that, not only have we lost any home field advantage, we have lost any semblance of a field we can call our own. Every game is an away game from now on. Overall, I think he's doing a remarkable job for an octogenarian. His detractors are set in their ways, horrified to find out that a cappa magna and a nickle won't buy them a cup of coffee no more, and desperately clinging on to the old, dead model, hoping to restore a Golden Age that never really existed, and never will. Unable and unwilling to adapt, they find themselves sharing company with the dodo and the dinosaurs. This is a civilization-wide phenomenon, and by no means restricted to the Catholic Church. All religious groups, Christian or not, are having to adapt to this new reality. Or die. I don't know what the Church of the future will be like, but it's going to be a lot different from anything that has existed in the past. I am confident, though, that, under the leadership of Pope Francis, and, God willing, visionary leaders in his wake, what does arise will be a worthy reflection of Christ's teachings. A lot of useless junk will have to be tossed overboard, though, to keep the barque afloat. And as for those clinging to that useless junk, they will find themselves overboard, as well.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 14, 2023 2:22:51 GMT
Just as a thought experiment, if through some miracle, issues involving liberty of sexuality, marriage, or gender identity ceased to exist tomorrow --- if everyone were to wake up tomorrow and no longer have any difficulty in following the Church's traditional teachings on these matters --- how strong would the quest for revolutionary change in the Church be anymore?
There are very few people who get up in the morning and face a day in which they have a strong urge to kill someone, steal things, tell lies other than the "white lies" that are a lifestyle accessory of so many, do meth or cocaine, kick homeless people in the shins and take their few belongings, desecrate the Blessed Sacrament, stampede cattle through the Vatican (sorry, couldn't resist that homage to Blazing Saddles), and so on. But conforming one's life to the Church's traditional teachings on sexuality and issues associated with it, that's another story entirely.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 14, 2023 2:38:09 GMT
We might be looking at traditionalism driven by modernism, i.e., the latter as part of being more informed (the laity having greater access to Scriptures and Church documents) but the former characterized by the opposite (for centuries, the laity was not allowed to read Scriptures unsupervised, and information wasn't widely disseminated quickly, if at all). In addition comes beliefs related to liberal democracy (e.g., approval by the majority) vs. the Papacy as a monarchy, and so on. Pope Francis realizes that the only authority one has is the authority that his followers cede him, not the authority he claims for himself. Come again? Francis has unabashedly and nakedly exercised more "authority" than any other Pope in at least the past 100 years, and I don't think he is of the impression that his followers cede it to him. His is a papacy of basically "my way or the highway". I wouldn't call any other Pope of the 20th or 21st century especially authoritarian.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 14, 2023 16:15:29 GMT
Pope Francis realizes that the only authority one has is the authority that his followers cede him, not the authority he claims for himself. Come again? Francis has unabashedly and nakedly exercised more "authority" than any other Pope in at least the past 100 years, and I don't think he is of the impression that his followers cede it to him. His is a papacy of basically "my way or the highway". I wouldn't call any other Pope of the 20th or 21st century especially authoritarian. Far from it. Especially considering that the main thing the dubia cardinals and their sympathizers are pitching a fit about is that he won't "put his foot down", give dictatorial black and white answers, and mercilessly stamp out what they (erroneously) think is "heresy". As for TC, which Traditionalists weirdly consider a "crackdown", all he did was follow up on Pope Benedict's instructions to evaluate the project at a later date. He did, found it to be a dismal failure, and reverted to the situation that was in force under Pope John Paul II. Hardly a "crackdown". As for your curiously formulated "thought experiment", it's not just about sexuality, or even primarily about it. Sexuality is just the tip of a much larger iceberg, consisting mainly of clericalism and reactionary politics. See the Quiet Revolution in Quebec. They weren't waving any rainbow flags around. The TLM movement started primarily as a reaction against the condemnation of antisemitism by the Second Vatican Council. The core that gathered around Lefebvre were mostly Vichy sympathizers and followers of various reactionary movements. The TLM was merely a flag to rally around.
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