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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 5, 2023 3:11:58 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 5, 2023 21:24:28 GMT
I was at the Dominican Rite Latin Requiem Mass for All Souls Day and I was definitely one of the older people there.
The presence of mostly 20 to 40-year-olds might have been due in part to the Mass being after dark in the middle of a major city, but that's who was there, nonetheless.
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Post by ralfy on Nov 5, 2023 23:39:35 GMT
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 6, 2023 17:05:55 GMT
I know you know this, but in everyday Catholic parlance, "traditional Catholicism" refers to the liturgy, spirituality, and catechetical methods of the Church, especially in Europe and European-adjacent cultures (Anglophone and Francophone countries outside Europe proper et al) in the era preceding the Second Vatican Council. Many people, including an increasing number of young people, find this attractive and beneficial to their Catholic life. Among other things, it is a rich fount of vocations. |
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Post by tth1 on Nov 7, 2023 14:30:42 GMT
You have to submit your email address for access ... It really annoys me when companies do this. If they're going to give me free access in return for my email address then why not simply furnish me with the free access. I don't want to receive the spam they're obviously going to send me. It further annoys me when they force you to agree to receive communications from them in order that they can claim they don't send spam. Having inserted my email I clicked submit but I couldn't access the article. This was because I hadn't checked the box authorising them to send me emails. I was asked to choose a subscription option. Here they are lying because no option exists. I ticked the box they forced me to tick so I was able to read the article. I won't receive any spam from them because as I do to navigate these stupid attempts to get your email I simply used one that doesn't exist. All their algorithms can do is check it's in a recognised email format. Consequently, you are not forced to give out your email if you don't want to provide it. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 7, 2023 17:54:56 GMT
You have to submit your email address for access ... It really annoys me when companies do this. If they're going to give me free access in return for my email address then why not simply furnish me with the free access. I don't want to receive the spam they're obviously going to send me. It further annoys me when they force you to agree to receive communications from them in order that they can claim they don't send spam. Having inserted my email I clicked submit but I couldn't access the article. This was because I hadn't checked the box authorising them to send me emails. I was asked to choose a subscription option. Here they are lying because no option exists. I ticked the box they forced me to tick so I was able to read the article. I won't receive any spam from them because as I do to navigate these stupid attempts to get your email I simply used one that doesn't exist. All their algorithms can do is check it's in a recognised email format. Consequently, you are not forced to give out your email if you don't want to provide it. It's all a matter of money. Such sites are willing to give you access in exchange for the ability to send you advertisements and other monetized content. You can always unsubscribe once you've read the article. I'm sure somewhere, some corporate bean counters have figured out how much, on average, every email address is worth. I would ultimately have to leave it up to one's conscience whether to provide a fake email address or not, but I wouldn't do it. There are far worse entities that could have your email address than National Geographic. |
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 7, 2023 23:26:09 GMT
I found it interesting that the trad article featured Our Lady of the Cape. I was just there a few months ago and while it does promote some traditional devotions and has a beautiful old chapel where we had a nice Mass (OF in English), the main church in the background of that photo is one of those modernist constructions. Some members of our group didn't get to see the inside because our visit was poorly planned and they locked it up before we all got a look, but those of us who went in there were like "you didn't miss much."
The chapel and grounds with Stations of the Cross and a giant Rosary decorating a bridge are very nice and worth a stop though, preferably when it's not snowing.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 8, 2023 0:40:28 GMT
I found it interesting that the trad article featured Our Lady of the Cape. I was just there a few months ago and while it does promote some traditional devotions and has a beautiful old chapel where we had a nice Mass (OF in English), the main church in the background of that photo is one of those modernist constructions. Some members of our group didn't get to see the inside because our visit was poorly planned and they locked it up before we all got a look, but those of us who went in there were like "you didn't miss much." The chapel and grounds with Stations of the Cross and a giant Rosary decorating a bridge are very nice and worth a stop though, preferably when it's not snowing. I looked up this church, and the interior somewhat reminds me of a modern take on Stella Maris Church near Charleston in South Carolina. It has a kind of nautical ambiance, all wood on the inside, and I can only describe the smell as "salty sandalwood", very pleasant. It's right on the coast. My son and I visited it a few years ago on vacation. (Bill Murray lives nearby, my son is a big Ghostbusters fan and I was hoping we'd see Bill out in the yard, but no such luck.) The TLM is offered there weekly. Our Lady of the Cape:  Stella Maris:  |
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Post by ralfy on Nov 8, 2023 0:52:42 GMT
I know you know this, but in everyday Catholic parlance, "traditional Catholicism" refers to the liturgy, spirituality, and catechetical methods of the Church, especially in Europe and European-adjacent cultures (Anglophone and Francophone countries outside Europe proper et al) in the era preceding the Second Vatican Council. Many people, including an increasing number of young people, find this attractive and beneficial to their Catholic life. Among other things, it is a rich fount of vocations.
I think that's the point of a minority of Catholics. For most, tradition refers to centuries-old local practices, and those, too are what leads to vocations. The catch is that they don't refer to the EF. Rather, they refer to the OF using archaic, local languages plus practices like the pasion, the novena, and so on, and these are part of their Catholic life, too. Here's one example:
which started during the late 18th century, and dates from the early 17th.
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Post by tth1 on Nov 8, 2023 12:32:38 GMT
It really annoys me when companies do this. If they're going to give me free access in return for my email address then why not simply furnish me with the free access. I don't want to receive the spam they're obviously going to send me. It further annoys me when they force you to agree to receive communications from them in order that they can claim they don't send spam. Having inserted my email I clicked submit but I couldn't access the article. This was because I hadn't checked the box authorising them to send me emails. I was asked to choose a subscription option. Here they are lying because no option exists. I ticked the box they forced me to tick so I was able to read the article. I won't receive any spam from them because as I do to navigate these stupid attempts to get your email I simply used one that doesn't exist. All their algorithms can do is check it's in a recognised email format. Consequently, you are not forced to give out your email if you don't want to provide it. It's all a matter of money. Such sites are willing to give you access in exchange for the ability to send you advertisements and other monetized content. You can always unsubscribe once you've read the article. I'm sure somewhere, some corporate bean counters have figured out how much, on average, every email address is worth. I would ultimately have to leave it up to one's conscience whether to provide a fake email address or not, but I wouldn't do it. There are far worse entities that could have your email address than National Geographic. I'd prefer the honesty of them asking payment to view the article.
They'll get no business out of me by sending advertising emails.
If they were completely open and honest I would be so with them. If they cannot be they have no right to a completely honest engagement. I do not believe I am doing anything wrong by using a non-existent email address to protect myself from emails I don't want to receive.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 8, 2023 18:14:47 GMT
It's all a matter of money. Such sites are willing to give you access in exchange for the ability to send you advertisements and other monetized content. You can always unsubscribe once you've read the article. I'm sure somewhere, some corporate bean counters have figured out how much, on average, every email address is worth. I would ultimately have to leave it up to one's conscience whether to provide a fake email address or not, but I wouldn't do it. There are far worse entities that could have your email address than National Geographic. I'd prefer the honesty of them asking payment to view the article.
They'll get no business out of me by sending advertising emails.
If they were completely open and honest I would be so with them. If they cannot be they have no right to a completely honest engagement. I do not believe I am doing anything wrong by using a non-existent email address to protect myself from emails I don't want to receive.
But then again there are cheapskates like me, who just keep on going whenever payment is required for something online. (I do occasionally get a 99-cent day pass to my hometown newspaper, if there's a story I'm especially interested in, or if I want to check out several obituaries. And that paper does not publish all obituaries in town. It was only by accident, by reading a couple of the funeral homes' websites, that I found out two of my cousins had died recently. I'm no longer in touch with the extended family and would never have known otherwise.) But anyway. I wouldn't go to the cross either way, saying it's a lie ( ergo morally culpable) to make up an email address to submit to a computer, or that it isn't. No judgment either way. I just choose not to. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 8, 2023 18:20:00 GMT
I know you know this, but in everyday Catholic parlance, "traditional Catholicism" refers to the liturgy, spirituality, and catechetical methods of the Church, especially in Europe and European-adjacent cultures (Anglophone and Francophone countries outside Europe proper et al) in the era preceding the Second Vatican Council. Many people, including an increasing number of young people, find this attractive and beneficial to their Catholic life. Among other things, it is a rich fount of vocations.
I think that's the point of a minority of Catholics. For most, tradition refers to centuries-old local practices, and those, too are what leads to vocations. The catch is that they don't refer to the EF. Rather, they refer to the OF using archaic, local languages plus practices like the pasion, the novena, and so on, and these are part of their Catholic life, too. Here's one example:
which started during the late 18th century, and dates from the early 17th.
Whatever. For what it's worth, I do not necessarily equate being a "traditional Catholic" with adherence to the TLM. I have known many people, usually of a certain generation, who were full-bore adherents to the traditional teachings and practices of the Church, accepting Humanae vitae, abstaining from meat on Friday, devoted to the rosary and the scapular, and so on, who nevertheless embraced the Novus Ordo, either out of their own sense of deference, or through lack of alternatives (we're talking the 1970s here). I think it's fair to refer to such people as "traditional Catholics". I assist at the Novus Ordo myself when I can't get to the TLM and need to go to Mass. |
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Post by ralfy on Nov 9, 2023 0:46:28 GMT
About not equating being a traditionalist with the EF, why do I keep seeing the opposite in this board, together with going against anything from Vatican II and after, not to mention insisting on older translations of the Bible, the Baltimore Catechism, and even using terms like the "Holy Ghost"?
Weirder still is that that traditionalism is actually driven by modernism, e.g., seeing the EF as aesthetically pleasing, looking for what is contemplative, arguing that people should do what they want (i.e., they can choose between the OF and the EF), questioning authority (like the Papacy), and then raising them repeatedly in forums and social media platforms.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 9, 2023 19:45:58 GMT
About not equating being a traditionalist with the EF, why do I keep seeing the opposite in this board, together with going against anything from Vatican II and after, not to mention insisting on older translations of the Bible, the Baltimore Catechism, and even using terms like the "Holy Ghost"? Weirder still is that that traditionalism is actually driven by modernism, e.g., seeing the EF as aesthetically pleasing, looking for what is contemplative, arguing that people should do what they want (i.e., they can choose between the OF and the EF), questioning authority (like the Papacy), and then raising them repeatedly in forums and social media platforms. Your definition of "modernism" is somewhat novel, but I suppose if I'm going to stretch the definition of "traditionalism", I cannot challenge your use of a term in a way that it's not typically used. I don't "go against anything from Vatican II and after" --- I read Vatican II, as I do any other Church teachings, in light of the analogia fidei, how it meshes with what was taught before. I use older translations of the Bible, and older catechisms, in tandem with more recent ones, and "Holy Ghost" is not confined to traditional Catholics, many Protestants use that term as well, to-wit, Jimmy Swaggart (admittedly, not the best role model, though I do respect how he publicly "owned up to" his indiscretions and made no excuses for them) and some African American evangelicals. You hear "Holy Ghost" all the time in the Southern US (where I live). Indeed, one diocesan parish church in Knoxville, Tennessee, retains its old name of "Holy Ghost" (BTW, the TLM is offered there every Sunday, alongside the Novus Ordo, one in Swahili, no less). |
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Post by ralfy on Nov 10, 2023 5:15:54 GMT
About not equating being a traditionalist with the EF, why do I keep seeing the opposite in this board, together with going against anything from Vatican II and after, not to mention insisting on older translations of the Bible, the Baltimore Catechism, and even using terms like the "Holy Ghost"? Weirder still is that that traditionalism is actually driven by modernism, e.g., seeing the EF as aesthetically pleasing, looking for what is contemplative, arguing that people should do what they want (i.e., they can choose between the OF and the EF), questioning authority (like the Papacy), and then raising them repeatedly in forums and social media platforms. Your definition of "modernism" is somewhat novel, but I suppose if I'm going to stretch the definition of "traditionalism", I cannot challenge your use of a term in a way that it's not typically used. I don't "go against anything from Vatican II and after" --- I read Vatican II, as I do any other Church teachings, in light of the analogia fidei, how it meshes with what was taught before. I use older translations of the Bible, and older catechisms, in tandem with more recent ones, and "Holy Ghost" is not confined to traditional Catholics, many Protestants use that term as well, to-wit, Jimmy Swaggart (admittedly, not the best role model, though I do respect how he publicly "owned up to" his indiscretions and made no excuses for them) and some African American evangelicals. You hear "Holy Ghost" all the time in the Southern US (where I live). Indeed, one diocesan parish church in Knoxville, Tennessee, retains its old name of "Holy Ghost" (BTW, the TLM is offered there every Sunday, alongside the Novus Ordo, one in Swahili, no less).
Part of modernism involves breaking up religion into components (e.g., aesthetics, contemplation, etc.), democracy (e.g., individual liberties, or opting for another form of the Mass and so on, in the name of breaking up religion into components, e.g., arguing that one is aesthetically pleasing or "sacred" compared to the other), and emphasizing on what's older to create the impression of fostering tradition for its own sake, e.g., older translations of the Bible aren't accurate, older catechism doesn't deal with recent issues, recent catechism deals with them in light of older catechism, and Catholics aren't Protestants.
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