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Post by theguvnor on Nov 11, 2023 11:08:24 GMT
We are expecting a protest of possibly up to half a million people here in London shortly today. All police are on standby and exclusion zones have been set up around the Cenotaph and US and Israeli embassy. That perpetual doyen of the far-right Tommy Robinson has also popped up to note he will 'defend England.' I am praying we are not going to end up with violence on the streets as a result of this as the violence flaring in Spain (which is over issues unrelated to Palestine) last night was unpleasant to watch and I don't want to see such events here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67383065
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 11, 2023 15:27:11 GMT
So far some minor idiocy with right-wing thuggery and 82 arrests. But so far much less violence than could have potentially occurred.
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Post by tth1 on Nov 12, 2023 13:53:22 GMT
Sadly, there were right-wing protests. I'm English and those thugs don't represent me or my England. Their behaviour is abhorrent.
I do hope this helps our spineless Prime Minister realise his Home Secretary is stirring up mischief and he exerts his authority and sacks Suella Braverman.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 12, 2023 14:17:28 GMT
The sight of Tommy Robinson high-tailing it out of town in a taxi was comedy gold. No, these people don't represent the best things about English culture. Watching them defend their plastic bags full of cans of lager was both humorous and slightly sad.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 13, 2023 0:04:03 GMT
"Zionist entity's evil genocide against Palestinians" is a bit much, especially coming from someone on a far away continent with zero connection to any of it.
I hope you can stay nice and peaceful when terrorists chop up your grandma or rape and murder your daughter or butcher your kids.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2023 3:41:53 GMT
"Zionist entity's evil genocide against Palestinians" is a bit much, especially coming from someone on a far away continent with zero connection to any of it. I hope you can stay nice and peaceful when terrorists chop up your grandma or rape and murder your daughter or butcher your kids. I do not accept or condone any violence against anybody, be they Jewish people who are citizens of the State of Israel, or Palestinians who are citizens of the State of Palestine. Of course, if "terrorists chop up your grandma or rape and murder your daughter or butcher your kids", then this is a war crime, and all people of good will condemn it in the strongest possible terms, as do I, regardless of who is the victim. I do not understand it when you say I should not have opinions about things that happen outside of my own country or ethnic heritage. I observe things happening in the world, I study the history surrounding them, and I form an opinion. In this case, I actually have Jewish heritage and a Maronite Catholic Lebanese friend who did a masters degree in Arab nationalism, with whom I discuss this basically everyday.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 13, 2023 9:49:22 GMT
You’re allowed to have opinions about anything you like. I’m allowed to think what I like about your opinions. In charity, I sometimes think they’re a bit much.
“Zionist entity” and phrases like that in US are generally a dog whistle for “this person’s anti-Semitic”. I’m not into that.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 13, 2023 10:56:27 GMT
I would avoid the the term Zionist entity for the reasons you note Bear as it pushes up the heat in a conversation without accomplishing much else. I would say Luke it's probably a term you're going to 'lose the listener' with if you consistently employ it. With that said Israel cannot be viewed as above critique and I do tend to agree with Leo Varadkar (and that's first) that the response by Israel has became a case of bloodletting rather at this point. I've observed before how Irish people and Irish-Americans often have a sharp divide on this subject however as both groups live in different societies and the the Irish view of matters in Israel and Palestine is rooted in a fellow feeling of seeing it as colonial occupation and the Irish-Americans tend to have a different view of the matter.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2023 11:09:56 GMT
“Zionist entity” and phrases like that in US are generally a dog whistle for “this person’s anti-Semitic”. I’m not into that. "Zionist entity" is a term mostly used by the Arabs, who are oppressed by the Israelis. My Arab Catholic friend said that in his opinion, that is the preferred term. I do not usually use it except when interacting with him, and then even with a semi-facetious intention, because I know that in the West it is looked down upon. Using it on an English-speaking forum likely was not a good idea, I accept that. However I do not view the use of the term itself as immoral. "Israel" refers to the Catholic Church and her members, not to a 'Jewish' state immorally founded by secularist Jews, though stealing, genocide, and murder, in the land hallowed by Our Lord Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection. I note many Jews are upset and horrified to be associated with this state. As Israel refers to the Church, I feel uncomfortable using a holy term to describe such a state. I certainly view anti-Semitism as evil, but in my opinion being opposed to Israel has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. The Jews of Neturei Karta will happily speak all day long about that. They always say that Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism, which is a political ideology concocted by secularist Jews in Austria-Hungary, and in their opinion it contradicts the Torah. My father even told me he was sure some of his relatives died in the Holocaust, because his mother is half-Jewish, the granddaughter of Jewish immigrants from the western part of the Russian Empire, who suffered a lot due to various anti-Jewish policies. I understand the suffering of the Jewish people, but that does not legitimise what Israel is doing or even the existence of the country. I don't like Israel, but that does not make me an anti-Semite. Many Jews also agree with me, I think, both the very religious Jews and even some secular Jews.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2023 11:24:16 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 13, 2023 12:13:16 GMT
You can explain all day, but if you went on like this in US you'd probably be risking having your job offers and college admissions and such withdrawn right now.
With that, I'm done with this discussion, I find it distasteful to be honest. If you were actually Palestinian or married to one I might feel differently.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2023 12:52:21 GMT
On that point, you are quite correct, tisbear. That is precisely why I mostly keep my views on issues like this to myself in real life, except when discussing things amongst friends whom I trust.
I expressed an opinion - you responded - and I felt a need to justify what I said. I stand by what I said, and the opinions I have intimated, even if I believe in my original post I expressed myself imprudently in the context.
I am a sinner though, always needing to examine his own actions and deeds, to conform them more closely to the Christian ideals, therefore my manner of expression may not always reflect that. For that I ask forgiveness and understanding, if in word or implication, intentionally or unintentionally, I did not live up to the Christian ideals or conform myself enough to Christ in so expressing myself, always aware of the dread words of Our Lord, that on the day of judgement men will render account for every careless word they utter (Matt. 12:36). I apologise for that, the fact I have offended you, and that you found this interaction distasteful.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 13, 2023 13:24:19 GMT
The US and Europe* have a different dialectical approach to this. Mind you, the whole Zionist Entity thing would be considered stuff that wouldn't fly in a paper or academic setting and you would likely get massive flak over using it. However, if Luke chose to talk like this in his private life that would be regarded as his business. It would be regarded as distasteful and might cause him problems but not everywhere.
*I am generalizing somewhat for the sake of brevity here as various European nations have somewhat differing approaches on this topic and Ireland is among those who hove been very critical of Israel, whereas the UK has been less critical but not gung-ho. I would say you might want to turn the volume down a wee bit Luke, your zeal is overwhelming what you are trying to communicate at points. That's probably natural if you feel impassioned but it might be wise to take a step or two backwards from the subject when talking to a wider audience.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 13, 2023 16:13:44 GMT
If somebody in US were talking like that in a private group of like-minded people it might be fine. However, the Internet is a big public billboard and we've had a lot of cases here of people including legislators, law students, people in professional careers who talked similar to that and all of a sudden found themselves out of a job or otherwise publicly suffering consequences. One big problem we have here is a lot of the "anti-Zionist" rhetoric comes from PoC who belong to various (non-Catholic and often anti-Catholic) churches or movements that espouse a lot of blatant anti-Semitism already even before this war broke out. Many such people have zero actual experience with Palestine/ Israel. There's another group of such people who've always considered Israel to be oppressive towards Palestinians, but because these people were either not announcing their views or were getting something of a free pass in US for being PoC or religious minority, they only now have popped up on national radar and having to pay the piper.
Unfortunately there's a stereotype in US of young white Catholic guys being anti-semitic, among other things, which we try to dispel. I also have a number of Jewish friends who have friends and relatives in Israel (some of whom were killed) as well as friendly acquaintances of Palestinian background (some of whom are Christian and some of whom have had to leave their home in Jerusalem for the time being for economic and safety reasons) so I have zero desire as a Catholic with no Palestinian or Jewish heritage myself to take sides. I just pray for peace, support whichever of my friends and acquaintances need it (they are not demanding that I take sides), and leave it at that.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 13, 2023 17:33:36 GMT
As I've indicated in some of my own posts on this forum here the issue with black people is true also in the UK. There is visceral dislike between the Jewish and black communities in Stamford Hill nearby and those two communities intersect as Stoke Newington and Dalston which have large black communities are near to Stamford Hill. Regular readers of my posts will remember me noting calling the police for incidents over this is in my last job. This was something that occurred in a minor way all the time. With remarks muttered under their breath and people pushing each other out of the way or comments such as, 'that's typical of your people' or 'this isn't Israel, you need to wait in line here.' It was also a two-way street as the Orthodox Jews perceive the black community as uncivilized, particularly the younger black people. I speak some Yiddish and the number of stupid conversations about 'schwarze's I overheard was unbelievable.
The Jews are the less openly racist or bigoted of the two groups however and generally just keep to themselves. The black community wants them gone and because both communities compete for social housing in the area tensions get very heated. Added to this you have complete and utter plonkers like Tommy Robinson. Tommy was told before this march in 2021 by the British Board of Deputies that the Jewish community didn't want or need his support and rejected it. I have no Palestinian or Jewish heritage but my wife has Jewish heritage but she views Israel as having embraced a dangerous regime under Bibi but she also views Hamas as unpleasant. Hamas also likely saw the normalization of relationships with the Saudis as a panic moment as if the Israelis normalised relationships with them it would be another potential supporter removed from their possible catalogue of allies. However, Hamas and Israel have a complex relationship where the current Israeli regime has to some extent created the problem it faces.
I do think that if Israel does not want to be seen as undertaking a genocide it needs to call a halt soon as the perception of colonial power engaging in ethnic cleansing is a very real one in many places.
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