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Post by AgnusDei on Mar 16, 2021 1:08:34 GMT
I have heard of one baptism happening at the roadside after what would moments later become a fatal accident. The person was unconscious and unable to be revived. The good Samaritan spoke the formula, and used water from the ditch just off the road. They had no idea if the victim was baptized before. It was said to be valid. Proper words, water, and intent. Anyone can baptize as I understand it. Depend on God for the rest. The victim’s family were grateful to the Samaritan for their action as the person was not baptized ever. May none of us ever live through that. Dominus vobiscum
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 16, 2021 3:19:41 GMT
Bear in mind, however, that mental capacity is not strictly required for baptism. In the case of babies, the parents and godparents act on behalf of the child. In the case of a person near death, baptized by a non-Christian who happens to be at hand, I believe the Church itself acts on behalf of the baptized. I have to think you're right about the latter. If the person dies, no harm done, and possibly a lot of good. If the person's family would have objected, well, what's done is done, and even if they bury the body according to their own rites (even non-Christian ones), their objections and actions have no bearing on the soul of that person.
No harm, no foul.
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Post by Beryllos on Mar 16, 2021 7:56:34 GMT
I was thinking of this passage in the Catechism: In the case of a non-baptized person ministering the baptism, I'm guessing that the Church must be present in some extraordinary way that transcends time and space, which is only possible through Christ.
If the person being baptized is unconscious or otherwise not able to act on his/her own, I think we are presuming that the person would desire baptism and assent to the faith ("I believe"), if only he/she were mentally competent and aware of the urgent circumstances. We have reason to hope that God can give the person the opportunity in some supernatural way, along with free will. If the person desires, assents, and receives the Holy Spirit, it's all good. They are free to reject it though, and they might. Here on earth, we wouldn't know if the baptism actually "took."
Now suppose the person survives and makes a full recovery, and it turns out they never wanted to be baptized and still don't want to. Our presumption is proven false, and there was no baptism. We could think of that as an annulment.
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Post by AgnusDei on Mar 16, 2021 10:41:03 GMT
^^^ That makes sense to me. In the case above, the family if the victim wanted to talk to the person who spent the last moments with their loved one. The Samaritan agreed and was put in contact with their family. They intended to have a baptism, but didn’t “get around to it yet.” So I would have to believe it “stuck”. Dominus vobiscum
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 16, 2021 11:01:53 GMT
I was thinking of this passage in the Catechism: In the case of a non-baptized person ministering the baptism, I'm guessing that the Church must be present in some extraordinary way that transcends time and space, which is only possible through Christ.
If the person being baptized is unconscious or otherwise not able to act on his/her own, I think we are presuming that the person would desire baptism and assent to the faith ("I believe"), if only he/she were mentally competent and aware of the urgent circumstances. We have reason to hope that God can give the person the opportunity in some supernatural way, along with free will. If the person desires, assents, and receives the Holy Spirit, it's all good. They are free to reject it though, and they might. Here on earth, we wouldn't know if the baptism actually "took."
Now suppose the person survives and makes a full recovery, and it turns out they never wanted to be baptized and still don't want to. Our presumption is proven false, and there was no baptism. We could think of that as an annulment.
My takeaway from this, and we may be talking about the exact same thing, is that baptism by a non-believer is always valid, just that it can be reasonably foreseen this wouldn't happen except in a case of necessity. Therefore Our Blessed Lord wouldn't "pull out all the stops" and allow His Church to be present, as you put it, in these circumstances but only these circumstances. As a practical matter, non-Christians wouldn't be going around baptizing people willy-nilly --- it would be, for instance, a non-Christian military chaplain, or a non-Christian worker in a Catholic hospital, doing this for someone in extremis who could reasonably be foreseen potentially to desire Catholic baptism.
To borrow an example of military chaplains performing rites of religions not their own, I'm assuming the producers of MASH weren't just taking literary license when they depicted Father Mulcahy performing a Jewish bris (don't recall the exact details, one hopes there would have been a little more surgical expertise than that , perhaps a surgeon actually performed the operation while Father Mulcahy recited the ritual prayers).
I hope the rest of the world can see, aside from being uncompromising on marital and sexual matters (because she cannot do otherwise), just how much the Catholic Church "bends over backwards" in the post-Vatican II era, to accommodate other religions. Do you think, for instance, that someplace like Bob Jones University would ever make its worship space available for a Catholic Mass or a Muslim service, if a group of Catholics or Muslims needed such a space? "When pigs fly" is probably an apt metaphor here. We make all of our social services, and things such as sponsoring refugee families, available to everyone regardless of their religion, with absolutely no expectation that those people will convert to Catholicism or embrace it in any way. We'd be happy for them to do it, but it's never expected. I knew of one Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic mission that was having a hard time getting started up, because the Ukrainians in that city had been assisted in coming to the US by Baptist groups, and, well, the Baptists had browbeaten them into going to Baptist services, rather than retaining their Catholicism. Dirty pool if you ask me.
We take pains to assert that goodness and truth can be found in other religions. We inculturate everything we possibly can. Does any other religion do anything like this? Are Hispanic people allowed to retain any aspects of their devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe when, regrettably, they become Baptists or Pentecostals? Are Christians allowed to retain any attachment whatsoever to the rabbi and teacher Jesus when they, tragically, abandon Christianity and adopt Judaism?
That's why I wasn't nearly as rattled as some orthodox, faithful Catholics by the whole Pachamama brou-ha-ha --- I reasoned "well, evidently this is just one more instance of inculturation, a little ambiguous to be sure, but not 'idol worship' by any stretch of the imagination". It seems as though most cultures in the history of the world have closely associated the divine with the concept of a "mother goddess", a tendency that I called "atavistic" on another forum, a term that was disliked by one reader (can't account for that, "atavistic" is more of an anthropological term, not a pejorative one in the least, guess that particular word just hit some sort of nerve), and the Catholic Church was able to reach these people by relating the Faith to something they already had. Put another way, it's just part of the human condition to "cry out for mama", and ancient religions have reflected this --- Lakshmi, Isis, Astarte, the list goes on. Marian devotion fits this like hand in glove, and Lord only knows the countless people who have been drawn to Our Divine Lord through devotion to His Mother. I know the Jack Chicks of the world don't much cotton to this, but we were not put on this earth to cater to such folks, we were put on this earth to bring other souls to God, whatever form those efforts might take. I taught my own son about the archangels by likening them to the comic super-heroes he has always been so fond of.
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Post by katy777 on Mar 17, 2021 1:18:26 GMT
Baptism leaves an indelible mark.
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 17, 2021 18:29:56 GMT
Baptism leaves an indelible mark. Yes, that is true, as long as the baptism was valid in the first place.
If the baptism was invalid --- for any reason --- then no baptism ever took place, appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. No baptism, no mark.
And just to clarify, when we say "invalid", we are saying "no sacrament, it didn't 'take', nothing happened". This is to be distinguished from "illicit", meaning against Church law or discipline, done when it shouldn't have been done, prohibited, but still valid. Sacraments can be illicit without being invalid, or they can be both. "Licit but invalid" is not possible.
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Post by katy777 on Mar 17, 2021 18:50:06 GMT
Baptism leaves an indelible mark. Yes, that is true, as long as the baptism was valid in the first place.
If the baptism was invalid --- for any reason --- then no baptism ever took place, appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. No baptism, no mark.
And just to clarify, when we say "invalid", we are saying "no sacrament, it didn't 'take', nothing happened". This is to be distinguished from "illicit", meaning against Church law or discipline, done when it shouldn't have been done, prohibited, but still valid. Sacraments can be illicit without being invalid, or they can be both. "Licit but invalid" is not possible.
Very true. How does one go about finding this out?
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 17, 2021 20:26:33 GMT
Yes, that is true, as long as the baptism was valid in the first place.
If the baptism was invalid --- for any reason --- then no baptism ever took place, appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. No baptism, no mark.
And just to clarify, when we say "invalid", we are saying "no sacrament, it didn't 'take', nothing happened". This is to be distinguished from "illicit", meaning against Church law or discipline, done when it shouldn't have been done, prohibited, but still valid. Sacraments can be illicit without being invalid, or they can be both. "Licit but invalid" is not possible.
Very true. How does one go about finding this out? If it were an objective point of fact, such as the misguidedly communitarian "we baptize you..." used in some baptisms in recent years (quite illicitly, I would add), as in the priest who was in the news a few months ago who had, in fact, never been validly baptized, there would have to be some kind of testimony such as a videotape (which is what the priest used). As far as I am aware, if one priest poured the water and another priest recited the words, that, too, would be invalid. In the absence of video recording, you would probably have to have multiple affidavits from witnesses, which would all have to agree on how the baptism had been done.
If it were something more subjective, such as "I was comatose, the nurse baptized me, but then I woke up, found out what had happened, and had always told everyone, in no uncertain terms, that I would never agree to such a thing, I don't believe and I don't ever want to be baptized", or if it were even fuzzier and more subjective than that, "they rushed me through the catechumenate, never brought up Issues XYZ, and if I'd known all of that, I would not have wanted to be baptized into the Church", well, that would be a lot more difficult to prove. In the case of the latter, I'm not sure the Church even entertains such objections. The threshold for valid baptism is fairly low, otherwise, all of the material (i.e., unsuspecting and in good will) heretics who become baptized Christians while having an imperfect understanding of what baptism or the One True Church even are, would have been invalidly baptized. We know that the Church accepts most Protestant baptisms --- something about which I have at least a small quibble, in that these baptisms are frequently conferred very sloppily, the minister saying "...in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...", not "and of", with the person being immersed only once after the words are said, not during. That said, if the Church accepts it, then so do I. I am not the type of Catholic who says "let's take each and every teaching, 'run it up the flagpole of wonderful me', see if it flies, see if I believe it, and if I don't, well, then, what I think trumps what the Church says".
Some ostensibly Christian baptisms are regarded as invalid (Plymouth Brethren, Shakers, Salvation Army et al) while others are regarded as doubtful (Seventh-Day Adventist, Mennonite, Moravian, et al). The baptism rites of the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are also invalid. Mormon baptism uses the exact same words and immersion, as Christian baptism does, but they interpret those words radically differently enough, that it invalidates the baptism by intent. Not at all clear what is doubtfully valid about baptism by Mennonites and Moravians. I was also of the impression that the Salvation Army was basically another Protestant denomination (though with a strange method of organization), but perhaps not.
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Post by tth1 on Aug 23, 2021 16:10:19 GMT
This is something I've always wondered about, and to be perfectly honest, I've never been fully satisfied with the answers I've received --- all of which have been, simply put, "no".
Now, mark my words, I'm not contemplating such an action for myself. While my catechesis was in some respects defective (though not as flawed as some I've heard of), and I didn't fully "know what I was getting myself in for" (I was 15), I have no reason to question my own baptism, and no desire "not to be baptized". If I discovered tomorrow that my baptism had been invalid, I would be wasting no time trying to find a priest to baptize me immediately. "All the moving parts" were there --- sufficient knowledge of what baptism is, desire to join the One True Church, priest signing off on it, godparents vouching for me, and so on.
But I've wondered if this is ever possible. (I refer to baptisms taking place in the Catholic Church, not outside of it, and some of those baptisms can be declared invalid for defect of form, if nothing else.) Let's say you have someone who went through "quickie catechism" (hardly possible anymore with RCIA), perhaps who received baptism primarily for the sake of a family member, harmony in the home, or to expedite marriage. They had, at best, a superficial and flawed understanding of Catholicism and Christianity in general, and didn't really comprehend what baptism is, or what it does. Perhaps they never really believed, except perhaps in a vague, gauzy, general sense of "baptism is a good thing and we should believe in Jesus", or something like that.
And then that person later wishes they hadn't done it, doesn't really believe and never did, admits they did it pretty much for external reasons having little if anything to do with faith or discipleship. They never really believed in anything other than just what the general "run" of society believes in the first place, a mush of quasi-Masonic tenets ("be a good person", "affirm the truths that all good men hold in common", and so on) and a kind of atmospheric belief in republican civic virtues and "received wisdom" --- freedom of speech, freedom of religion, don't kill, don't steal, don't cheat on your spouse, and so on. Finer points, such as birth control, the indissolubility of marriage, abortion in hard cases, the authority of the magisterium to teach, and in so teaching, to trump the majority consensus of the largere society if need be, and so on, never really believed what the Church teaches, just kept their mouth shut about their unbelief.
Again, I have to wonder if there is a more sophisticated, nuanced, individualized answer than merely saying "oh, yes, it was valid". Why do we not apply the same subjective psychological factors, that are applied when looking at the validity of a marriage? Again, "all the moving parts" are pretty much the same --- you have a ceremony, in a church, before a priest, vows are taken, a sacrament is putatively conferred... but lo and behold, several years later, a church tribunal is able to declare "there was never a sacrament". So why is baptism different?
Don't get me wrong, it's not something I condone or recommend, but I am simply wondering why it is not theoretically possible, just as marriage annulments are.
(And then again there are the other five sacraments. I suppose, by extension, one could also seek to have a confirmation declared invalid, or for that matter, one's reception of holy orders. An invalid confession is very easy to make --- just deliberately exclude one mortal sin, or fail to have sorrow for at least all of your mortal sins --- and Masses can easily be invalid if incorrect matter is used, such as rice bread, cinnamon honey cakes, and so on. I suppose anointing of the sick could theoretically be invalid too, if for instance bacon grease were used instead of oil. Not trying to be crude there, just trying to think of an oil-like substance that is not oil. So that covers all seven sacraments. Any of the seven could theoretically be invalid.)
No! Sorry
Baptism cannot be annulled in the sense you are talking about. It does not require consent like marriage does. If it did we could not baptise infants because they are incapable of giving consent. A baptism would be invalid if the requirements for validlity were absent. There are five of them.
Matter: For baptism this must be water.
Form: These are the words required for validity and for baptism are, 'I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Minister: Normally, this would be the parish priest but for baptism it can basically be anyone. Outside an emergency it would only be illicit if the man next door had done it but not invalid.
Recipient: This means the person must be able to receive the sacrament. For example, you could not be baptised. That's because you are. Another example would be a woman cannot receive Holy Orders.
Intent: This is the minister in administering the sacrament intending to simply do what the Church requires.
The Church puts no great hurdles to be jumped over to validly receive a sacrament. Admittedly, it gets very complicated with holy matrimony, hence the large number of canons on it and the existece of marriage tribunals. However, if the five requirements were in place then baptism was administered.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 23, 2021 17:49:17 GMT
This is something I've always wondered about, and to be perfectly honest, I've never been fully satisfied with the answers I've received --- all of which have been, simply put, "no".
Now, mark my words, I'm not contemplating such an action for myself. While my catechesis was in some respects defective (though not as flawed as some I've heard of), and I didn't fully "know what I was getting myself in for" (I was 15), I have no reason to question my own baptism, and no desire "not to be baptized". If I discovered tomorrow that my baptism had been invalid, I would be wasting no time trying to find a priest to baptize me immediately. "All the moving parts" were there --- sufficient knowledge of what baptism is, desire to join the One True Church, priest signing off on it, godparents vouching for me, and so on.
But I've wondered if this is ever possible. (I refer to baptisms taking place in the Catholic Church, not outside of it, and some of those baptisms can be declared invalid for defect of form, if nothing else.) Let's say you have someone who went through "quickie catechism" (hardly possible anymore with RCIA), perhaps who received baptism primarily for the sake of a family member, harmony in the home, or to expedite marriage. They had, at best, a superficial and flawed understanding of Catholicism and Christianity in general, and didn't really comprehend what baptism is, or what it does. Perhaps they never really believed, except perhaps in a vague, gauzy, general sense of "baptism is a good thing and we should believe in Jesus", or something like that.
And then that person later wishes they hadn't done it, doesn't really believe and never did, admits they did it pretty much for external reasons having little if anything to do with faith or discipleship. They never really believed in anything other than just what the general "run" of society believes in the first place, a mush of quasi-Masonic tenets ("be a good person", "affirm the truths that all good men hold in common", and so on) and a kind of atmospheric belief in republican civic virtues and "received wisdom" --- freedom of speech, freedom of religion, don't kill, don't steal, don't cheat on your spouse, and so on. Finer points, such as birth control, the indissolubility of marriage, abortion in hard cases, the authority of the magisterium to teach, and in so teaching, to trump the majority consensus of the largere society if need be, and so on, never really believed what the Church teaches, just kept their mouth shut about their unbelief.
Again, I have to wonder if there is a more sophisticated, nuanced, individualized answer than merely saying "oh, yes, it was valid". Why do we not apply the same subjective psychological factors, that are applied when looking at the validity of a marriage? Again, "all the moving parts" are pretty much the same --- you have a ceremony, in a church, before a priest, vows are taken, a sacrament is putatively conferred... but lo and behold, several years later, a church tribunal is able to declare "there was never a sacrament". So why is baptism different?
Don't get me wrong, it's not something I condone or recommend, but I am simply wondering why it is not theoretically possible, just as marriage annulments are.
(And then again there are the other five sacraments. I suppose, by extension, one could also seek to have a confirmation declared invalid, or for that matter, one's reception of holy orders. An invalid confession is very easy to make --- just deliberately exclude one mortal sin, or fail to have sorrow for at least all of your mortal sins --- and Masses can easily be invalid if incorrect matter is used, such as rice bread, cinnamon honey cakes, and so on. I suppose anointing of the sick could theoretically be invalid too, if for instance bacon grease were used instead of oil. Not trying to be crude there, just trying to think of an oil-like substance that is not oil. So that covers all seven sacraments. Any of the seven could theoretically be invalid.)
No! Sorry
Baptism cannot be annulled in the sense you are talking about. It does not require consent like marriage does. If it did we could not baptise infants because they are incapable of giving consent. A baptism would be invalid if the requirements for validlity were absent. There are five of them.
Matter: For baptism this must be water.
Form: These are the words required for validity and for baptism are, 'I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Minister: Normally, this would be the parish priest but for baptism it can basically be anyone. Outside an emergency it would only be illicit if the man next door had done it but not invalid.
Recipient: This means the person must be able to receive the sacrament. For example, you could not be baptised. That's because you are. Another example would be a woman cannot receive Holy Orders.
Intent: This is the minister in administering the sacrament intending to simply do what the Church requires.
The Church puts no great hurdles to be jumped over to validly receive a sacrament. Admittedly, it gets very complicated with holy matrimony, hence the large number of canons on it and the existece of marriage tribunals. However, if the five requirements were in place then baptism was administered.
Sir, friend, if I might say so, you've been on quite the expedition this morning, some great input on many different questions (and not just mine). Keep it up! This forum is the best, but it's entirely too small. We need more lively correspondents such as yourself.
Good summary of the situation. I would just add, and this is probably fodder for another entire thread --- and I am thankful that a moderate, shouldn't be any more than "moderate", that couldn't be tolerated, amount of "thread drift", even if there comes a need to steer the thread back on track (gentle reminders serve that purpose), is tolerated on CCS, not only for long-winded raconteurs such as myself, but because, for all we know, the Holy Spirit could be guiding us someplace that we need to be --- that marriage, unlike any other sacrament, has the "matter" of two people, who may be deeply flawed as people. Thus many (but not all) annulments, when you get right down to it, come down to the question "was at least one of these spouses 'valid matter' for confection of the sacrament of matrimony"? Maybe one was, and the other one wasn't. Maybe neither one was. Were they mentally and/or spiritually capable of having the kind of "consent", even the kind of "free will", needed to confect the sacrament, the matter of which was they, themselves?
And I know this doesn't address the matter (no pun intended) of "was a natural marriage, not between two baptized people --- either one was and one wasn't, or neither one was --- valid or invalid?". Such a marriage is not a sacrament, and thus there is no question of "matter" being valid or invalid.
Other questions, for other threads. I'll get off the bus now.
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