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Post by StellaMaris on Jul 9, 2021 22:27:58 GMT
“The call to reconciliation and peace among the mixed group of believers in Ephesus betrays the many divisions — religious, cultural, ideological, political, economic etc. — that were present and that threatened to undermine the transformative power of the Gospel,” he said.St. Paul, he said, calls the Ephesians “to look to the cross of Jesus Christ as the means for overcoming all that divides and keeps them separate, unable to recognize one another as brothers and sisters, created by God to live in harmony, justice and peace.”The reality of the Franciscans, he told his confreres, “is not so very different from the situation within the Christian communities in Ephesus. We also experience many challenges, the consequences of the great diversity present within the life of the order: ideological, spiritual, socio-economic, clerical/lay, straight/gay, cultural, geographical, racial, caste, region, etc.”For too long, Father Perry said, the Franciscan order and the church itself “have pretended to be ‘above culture,’ colorblind, imposing uniformity of thinking and acting as a means to erase difference and, thereby, creating a false sense of harmony and common identity.”But St. Paul “did not try to pretend that once a person is baptized into the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, all differences cease to exist,” he said. “Rather, he suggests that it is only when we recognize and accept our weakness, our incompleteness, when we wake up to the need to open our lives to a diversity of experiences present within the believing community, present within our local fraternities in the order, and to allow this diversity to enrich our human and spiritual lives, only then will we come to the experience of being ‘built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.'”www.catholicsun.org/2021/07/07/franciscans-open-general-chapter-focusing-on-diversity-evangelization/
I believe that in the bolded sentence, there is truth. Western colonialism was a big part of the original problem in that European culture and Christianity were considered one and the same.
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Post by katy777 on Jul 9, 2021 22:47:17 GMT
Hmmm. Our old priest was Franciscan. He gave his stipend to the church and school--meaning his entire salary. He rode his bike from here to Virginia sand back for ride for runaways.
He would be seen jogging so far away from school and church as a mortification.he ate from the food pantry And at childrens parties at school..
He wore old vestments. He led us to the march for life. I went 4 times with him and our kind religion teacher shared her lunch with. Him. He is a humble servant. He does this for all.
He prays for the children, formed a youth group with zero money.
He is retired now but still does that ride to Virginia. He was and is focused on God.
The parish Loved him. Then we split and he retired and we left.
He taught the children how to pray at vacation bible school. My son's were greatly influenced by him.
But he was not traditional how he taught. Sometimes words are not necessary.
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Post by AgnusDei on Jul 10, 2021 0:17:58 GMT
That is someone deserving respect. Wow.
Dominus vobiscum
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Post by StellaMaris on Jul 10, 2021 0:43:21 GMT
I have a real soft spot for the Franciscans. My husband who was raised in the local Italian community came through the Franciscan schooling system and we moved back to the area so our kids could go through the system. That was between 1997 and 2012. The Franciscan hub encompassed 3 full city blocks, with a primary school, boys high school, girls high school, a convent, a presbytery and an aged care home. It was par for the course to see Friars walking the streets in their brown cassocks and sandals and the nuns in their fawn skirts and tao crosses around their necks, wandering through the schools. We are a community who has embraced Pope Francis and his Franciscan mission so joyfully.
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Post by katy777 on Jul 10, 2021 1:51:41 GMT
I have a real soft spot for the Franciscans. My husband who was raised in the local Italian community came through the Franciscan schooling system and we moved back to the area so our kids could go through the system. That was between 1997 and 2012. The Franciscan hub encompassed 3 full city blocks, with a primary school, boys high school, girls high school, a convent, a presbytery and an aged care home. It was par for the course to see Friars walking the streets in their brown cassocks and sandals and the nuns in their fawn skirts and tao crosses around their necks, wandering through the schools. We are a community who has embraced Pope Francis and his Franciscan mission so joyfully. So sweet Mercedes.Sounds lovely. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 18:22:22 GMT
I love the Franciscans as an order. Unfortunately, my experience of them in California has been wholly negative. I've attended four Franciscan Masses (three of them frequently) and I've never once experienced even a semi-reverent Mass. They were full of innovations like guitars, "lifeteen/youth masses" (something that directly contradicts Sacrosanctum Concilium) and other liturgical abuses and excesses. I've emailed the missions directly, hoping to avoid scandalizing anyone by making public comments, and every time I have been ignored or dismissed. My experience of the Franciscans is way down there near the bottom with the Jesuits. I can't stand the caricature they have made of St Francis of Assisi :-( It's like the nominal Catholics and their understanding of hippie surfer Jesus who never holds anyone accountable for their sins and is fine with any and all religions, so long as we share things in our communal bond of human fraternity. It's all very anti-catholic.
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Post by StellaMaris on Jul 10, 2021 18:32:04 GMT
I love the Franciscans as an order. Unfortunately, my experience of them in California has been wholly negative. I've attended four Franciscan Masses (three of them frequently) and I've never once experienced even a semi-reverent Mass. They were full of innovations like guitars, "lifeteen/youth masses" (something that directly contradicts Sacrosanctum Concilium) and other liturgical abuses and excesses. I've emailed the missions directly, hoping to avoid scandalizing anyone by making public comments, and every time I have been ignored or dismissed. My experience of the Franciscans is way down there near the bottom with the Jesuits. I can't stand the caricature they have made of St Francis of Assisi :-( It's like the nominal Catholics and their understanding of hippie surfer Jesus who never holds anyone accountable for their sins and is fine with any and all religions, so long as we share things in our communal bond of human fraternity. It's all very anti-catholic. How do guitars contradict Sacrosanctum Concilium? 119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.
Therefore, when missionaries are being given training in music, every effort should be made to see that they become competent in promoting the traditional music of these peoples, both in schools and in sacred services, as far as may be practicable.
120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
121. Composers, filled with the Christian spirit, should feel that their vocation is to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.
Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.
The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 0:55:55 GMT
StellaMaris The rule of thumb on music in the Mass is that it should have no ties to secular music. Guitars are instruments that, at least here in the United States, are entirely secular instruments. They have no place in the Mass. Neither do drums, tambourines, or any of the other clown stuff that some people like to force in. Many people these days cannot tell the difference between sacred music and religious entertainment. More often than not, the novus ordo parishes I've attended are indistinguishable from the protestant services I attended prior to becoming Catholic.
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Post by AgnusDei on Jul 11, 2021 1:40:57 GMT
From mercedes “This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.“
I am of the opinion that a guitar is probably not “suitable”. “Accord with dignity and edification” no idea I’m guessing no.
Beautiful church I visited once. Inside almost gothic, columns and vaulted ceilings. (I had to move twice to see around the columns. Bad “me” placement). It began well enough,…and then the piano/guitar and singing quartet almost went “rock Jesus”. I did not want to just “up-n-leave” so suffered through it. It was a 1030am mass, maybe the 0800am was more mild. I may call and ask before, IF I visit there again. I have so few days where I CAN get to mass, I don’t want it to be fouled up.
Dominus vobiscum
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Post by StellaMaris on Jul 11, 2021 3:31:29 GMT
StellaMaris The rule of thumb on music in the Mass is that it should have no ties to secular music. Guitars are instruments that, at least here in the United States, are entirely secular instruments. They have no place in the Mass. Neither do drums, tambourines, or any of the other clown stuff that some people like to force in. Many people these days cannot tell the difference between sacred music and religious entertainment. More often than not, the novus ordo parishes I've attended are indistinguishable from the protestant services I attended prior to becoming Catholic. The Protestants have some good Christian practices though, especially in appealing to the young in this faithless secular world we live in. Music is one of those areas through which messages reach young people and where they can express from the heart also. I don't really get antagonism towards modern music as worship. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 4:16:53 GMT
StellaMaris Because there is a difference between sacred music and religious entertainment. Contemporary protestant hymns and music are fine, in and of themselves. But they have no place in the context of a Mass/Divine Liturgy. The youth in the Roman Church are drawn to the Latin Mass instinctively because they can sense the difference between the sacred nature of the Latin Mass vs the entertainment aspect of the Novus Ordo they are experiencing at their local parish. Of course that's a generalization and is not true of every parish. And perhaps the Novus Ordo isn't as bad in other countries as it is here in the United States. But here in the U.S. things are a right mess. And one of a litany of contributing factors to said mess are crappy liturgies with crappy music (in a sacred sense). Music is, generally, highly subjective. But when it comes to sacred music, there's an almost inherent objectivity to it. No happy, clappy guitar and drum song singing about Jesus loving you or talking about filling the cup or taking the bread or whatever kind of lyrics it has, will compare with sacred chants (regardless of language). The former excites people and gets them emotionally riled up (in a good way). The latter takes over all your senses (if all the necessary accompaniments are present in the Liturges, as they are "supposed" to be) and elevates them toward Heaven. Words cannot do it justice. If you ever get the opportunity to attend a Divine Liturgy, I would strongly encourage you to go!! If you do, while you are there, try to imagine contemporary protestant lyrics and guitars and drums and whatever other secular instruments during the context of the Liturgy. It is jarring, even to think about it.
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Post by StellaMaris on Jul 11, 2021 5:50:27 GMT
StellaMaris Because there is a difference between sacred music and religious entertainment. Contemporary protestant hymns and music are fine, in and of themselves. But they have no place in the context of a Mass/Divine Liturgy. The youth in the Roman Church are drawn to the Latin Mass instinctively because they can sense the difference between the sacred nature of the Latin Mass vs the entertainment aspect of the Novus Ordo they are experiencing at their local parish. Of course that's a generalization and is not true of every parish. And perhaps the Novus Ordo isn't as bad in other countries as it is here in the United States. But here in the U.S. things are a right mess. And one of a litany of contributing factors to said mess are crappy liturgies with crappy music (in a sacred sense). Music is, generally, highly subjective. But when it comes to sacred music, there's an almost inherent objectivity to it. No happy, clappy guitar and drum song singing about Jesus loving you or talking about filling the cup or taking the bread or whatever kind of lyrics it has, will compare with sacred chants (regardless of language). The former excites people and gets them emotionally riled up (in a good way). The latter takes over all your senses (if all the necessary accompaniments are present in the Liturges, as they are "supposed" to be) and elevates them toward Heaven. Words cannot do it justice. If you ever get the opportunity to attend a Divine Liturgy, I would strongly encourage you to go!! If you do, while you are there, try to imagine contemporary protestant lyrics and guitars and drums and whatever other secular instruments during the context of the Liturgy. It is jarring, even to think about it. My formative years were attending the Old Mass and I made my first confession and Holy Communion in the Latin Mass era. I was always part of youth groups in my teens and twenties (during the late 70's/early 80's) at which guitars were par for the course. To be honest I've never understood the negativity to the song Kumbaya. It was popularized in Australia by the Seekers and known to be an African American song “Oh, Lord, Won’t You Come By Here”. Was there a racist element to the hostility? I don't know but I genuinely never understood why such a beautiful song is so maligned. If we are to go further back in Christianity to define 'traditional' it would be the Bible and early Church. We know that in those times the traditional instruments were bells, cymbals, timbral (which is a tamborine), lyre, harp, shofar, trumpet, reed pipe and flute. So while I think that the pipe organ and the Gregorian chants are really lovely, they aren't what I would term as the real Christian traditional worship music. It just comes down to personal preference and cultural familiars in my opinion. I've never been brought to tears by Latin Mass music but it's only in the last 2 or 3 years that I can sing the hymn 'Here I Am Lord' without welling up with passion for Jesus. My Mum was the same with the Galilee Song. Many ways, One Lord. |
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Post by AgnusDei on Jul 11, 2021 11:32:12 GMT
I’m just imagining a nice, reverent mass. Smells and bells. And then, out of the revered silence,….”the bass drop”. Are we headed this way too? Hey, kids like that stuff don’t they? It would really “connect”. The priest wearing a Kangol hat. Candle flames flickering or going out entirely, glass rattling, statues moving out of their wall niches. Receiving the precious blood from a solo cup. Not just a taste here either, we’re SERIOUS about Jesus! That would be just awesome worship. (Giant, epic ridiculous sarcasm)
Dominus vobiscum
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 15:21:25 GMT
StellaMaris The rule of thumb on music in the Mass is that it should have no ties to secular music. Guitars are instruments that, at least here in the United States, are entirely secular instruments. They have no place in the Mass. Neither do drums, tambourines, or any of the other clown stuff that some people like to force in. Many people these days cannot tell the difference between sacred music and religious entertainment. More often than not, the novus ordo parishes I've attended are indistinguishable from the protestant services I attended prior to becoming Catholic. The guitar predates the organ or piano. I played guitar and sang at Mass and the church was packed with both young and old. Music is a taste and if you don't like guitar Masses, fine, go find a Mass you prefer. However, don't state which isn't true, that guitars don't belong in the Mass. Heck, there was a Pope who once banned the use of violins in Mass. His reason was that his assistant played the violin and practiced in the papal apartment and the Pope didn't like it. When that Pope died, he was replaced by the assistant who played the violin and of course he removed the prohibition against the instrument and returned full string orchestras to the Mass in the Vatican.  |
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Post by katy777 on Jul 11, 2021 17:04:11 GMT
I have a real soft spot for the Franciscans. We are a community who has embraced Pope Francis and his Franciscan mission so joyfully. Isn't Pope Francis a Jesuit? |
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