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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 7, 2021 0:37:08 GMT
As many of you here know, my dear father passed away on 22 July of this year, and since that time, I have been attempting to gain as many plenary indulgences for him as I could. He has very few people in his life who comprehend the necessity of praying for the departed, and I have been heavily reliant upon online Catholicism, as well as the communities IRL with which I affiliate.
The Year of St Joseph has been easy --- one prayer, the Prayer to St Joseph, along with the other conditions --- but, alas, that year will end on 8 December. I have been going over the guidelines for plenaries, and for my state in life, it looks as though Scripture reading (one half-hour) or recitation of the Rosary in a church or oratory will be the simplest ones.
Question about recitation of the Rosary, may it be by oneself, or does it have to be in a group? This verbiage is confusing:
§1 A plenary indulgence is granted to the faithful who
1° devoutly recite the Marian rosary in a church or oratory, or in a family, a religious community, or an association of the faithful, and in general when several of the faithful gather for some honest purpose
Does this mean (a) that it can be anytime one is inside of a church or oratory, regardless of whether anyone else is there, and (b) does the last part mean that a plenary could be obtained "when several of the faithful gather for some honest purpose", regardless of where they are gathered? I am assuming that "several" means three or more --- it's kind of like a sorites (so-RYE-tees), the philosophical exercise in which one is asked "how many of X make a heap of X?".
I am probably making all of this more complicated than it actually is. Information welcomed.
But I've got to say, all of this is WAAAY over the head of the average Catholic in the pew in the year 2021.
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Post by tisbearself on Dec 7, 2021 2:22:10 GMT
A) Yes
B) Yes
"Several" of the faithful to me means "more than one." Jesus referred to wherever "two or three" were gathered in his name and said he was there also. Therefore, two is enough according to Jesus, and His holy presence would make it three.
The faithful can gather anywhere to pray a Rosary for the indulgence. We have gathered on the Mall in DC, on busses, outside the PP clinic etc, it doesn't have to be in a church.
The easiest plenary that would be available every day after Year of St Joseph ends would be reciting the Divine Mercy chaplet said for the Pope's specified COVID intentions (for God to grant us an end to the pandemic, for relief for all those suffering in any way from it, and for salvation for all those who have died). This indulgence was offered in the Pope's special decree for indulgences during COVID pandemic, which continues in force AFAIK. A DM chaplet takes approximately 6 minutes and can be said alone, in any location, and there are no rules about its not being interrupted, etc.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 7, 2021 2:36:10 GMT
A) Yes B) Yes "Several" of the faithful to me means "more than one." Jesus referred to wherever "two or three" were gathered in his name and said he was there also. Therefore, two is enough according to Jesus, and His holy presence would make it three. The faithful can gather anywhere to pray a Rosary for the indulgence. We have gathered on the Mall in DC, on busses, outside the PP clinic etc, it doesn't have to be in a church. The easiest plenary that would be available every day after Year of St Joseph ends would be reciting the Divine Mercy chaplet said for the Pope's specified COVID intentions (for God to grant us an end to the pandemic, for relief for all those suffering in any way from it, and for salvation for all those who have died). This indulgence was offered in the Pope's special decree for indulgences during COVID pandemic, which continues in force AFAIK. A DM chaplet takes approximately 6 minutes and can be said alone, in any location, and there are no rules about its not being interrupted, etc. Thank you so much. Your indulgence apostolate is very inspiring, and I knew that if anyone would know, it would be you. I am perfectly good with the Divine Mercy chaplet. This is incredibly helpful.
I wasn't sure in my mind whether two (rather than three) would count as "several", the dictionary definition (once more, a post on this forum descends into the strict definition of words, and I'm the culprit this time...) is "more than two but not many", not sure what connotation aliquot has in Latin, which is the word I'm assuming was used in the original text. As you well point out, Our Lord would make it three.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 7, 2021 17:27:26 GMT
not sure what connotation aliquot has in Latin, which is the word I'm assuming was used in the original text. If aliquot does appear in the original, Lewis and Short says it means, "several, a few, number undefined'. (Emphasis mine) |
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 7, 2021 20:49:40 GMT
not sure what connotation aliquot has in Latin, which is the word I'm assuming was used in the original text. If aliquot does appear in the original, Lewis and Short says it means, "several, a few, number undefined'. (Emphasis mine) I'll take your word for it. I couldn't find the Latin original. (Why doesn't vatican.va have all of this stuff?)
My Latin is very spotty outside of those things to which I have had repeated exposure (Latin missal, etc.). I'm basically self-taught.
Got to wonder what Martin Gwynne would say about this.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 9, 2021 15:40:40 GMT
If aliquot does appear in the original, Lewis and Short says it means, "several, a few, number undefined'. (Emphasis mine) I'll take your word for it. I couldn't find the Latin original. (Why doesn't vatican.va have all of this stuff?)
My Latin is very spotty outside of those things to which I have had repeated exposure (Latin missal, etc.). I'm basically self-taught.
Got to wonder what Martin Gwynne would say about this.
Do not take my word for it. My Latin is probably far more spotty than yours. I've always intended learning Latin. It's on about page 1675 of my To Do List.  I just happen to own the Lewis and Short dictionary. I am told it's the best.
I can't help you with your question as to why the Vatican's website does not have this.
I don't know who Martin Gwynne is and I wonder if you meant to refer to Nevile Gwynne.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 9, 2021 15:57:26 GMT
I'll take your word for it. I couldn't find the Latin original. (Why doesn't vatican.va have all of this stuff?)
My Latin is very spotty outside of those things to which I have had repeated exposure (Latin missal, etc.). I'm basically self-taught.
Got to wonder what Martin Gwynne would say about this.
Do not take my word for it. My Latin is probably far more spotty than yours. I've always intended learning Latin. It's on about page 1675 of my To Do List. I just happen to own the Lewis and Short dictionary. I am told it's the best.
I can't help you with your question as to why the Vatican's website does not have this.
I don't know who Martin Gwynne is and I wonder if you meant to refer to Nevile Gwynne.
Same guy, also goes by N.M. Gwynne. I thought his common, familiar name --- what he calls himself in everyday life --- was Martin. I could be wrong. Interesting fellow.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 9, 2021 16:02:41 GMT
Do not take my word for it. My Latin is probably far more spotty than yours. I've always intended learning Latin. It's on about page 1675 of my To Do List. I just happen to own the Lewis and Short dictionary. I am told it's the best.
I can't help you with your question as to why the Vatican's website does not have this.
I don't know who Martin Gwynne is and I wonder if you meant to refer to Nevile Gwynne.
Same guy, also goes by N.M. Gwynne. I thought his common, familiar name --- what he calls himself in everyday life --- was Martin. I could be wrong. Interesting fellow.
I've only heard him called Mr. Gwynne or Nevile. I've never heard the chap called Martin. Indeed, I believe he might be upset if one were to address him as anything other than Mr. Gwynne without being invited to use his Christian names. Interesting is one way to describe him. He does have some, shall I say, unusual ideas. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 9, 2021 16:17:07 GMT
Same guy, also goes by N.M. Gwynne. I thought his common, familiar name --- what he calls himself in everyday life --- was Martin. I could be wrong. Interesting fellow.
I've only heard him called Mr. Gwynne or Nevile. I've never heard the chap called Martin. Indeed, I believe he might be upset if one were to address him as anything other than Mr. Gwynne without being invited to use his Christian names. Interesting is one way to describe him. He does have some, shall I say, unusual ideas. You are right, he does go by Neville (one L or two?), I stand corrected:
As for people who use the "greengrocer's apostrophe" to make plurals, to-wit "banana's", "apple's", and so on, one gets the impression sometimes, that they are just guessing, they can't comprehend the difference between a plural and a possessive, and they do it hit-or-miss. I've seen it. I know I've told this story before, but I once worked in an ad shop for a woman who had just enough education to be dangerous. I challenged her use of the "greengrocer's apostrophe" and she stammered in a huff, "plurality denotes possession", or it may have been "possession denotes plurality". Utter ignorance --- my guess is that she stayed awake in freshman composition class just enough to have thought she heard something like this, and thought it made her sound intelligent. She didn't like me terribly much. That was her problem, not mine.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 9, 2021 16:27:46 GMT
I've only heard him called Mr. Gwynne or Nevile. I've never heard the chap called Martin. Indeed, I believe he might be upset if one were to address him as anything other than Mr. Gwynne without being invited to use his Christian names. Interesting is one way to describe him. He does have some, shall I say, unusual ideas. You are right, he does go by Neville (one L or two?), I stand corrected:
As for people who use the "greengrocer's apostrophe" to make plurals, to-wit "banana's", "apple's", and so on, one gets the impression sometimes, that they are just guessing, they can't comprehend the difference between a plural and a possessive, and they do it hit-or-miss. I've seen it. I know I've told this story before, but I once worked in an ad shop for a woman who had just enough education to be dangerous. I challenged her use of the "greengrocer's apostrophe" and she stammered in a huff, "plurality denotes possession", or it may have been "possession denotes plurality". Utter ignorance --- my guess is that she stayed awake in freshman composition class just enough to have thought she heard something like this, and thought it made her sound intelligent. She didn't like me terribly much. That was her problem, not mine.
I would personally it Neville, i.e. with two Ls. I always been under the impression that he spells it with one. He is no help to us. I've just pulled "Gwynne's Latin" off the shelf but can only find his initials therein. I then visited his website where he again, is listed only as N. M Gwynne.
The greengrocer's apostrophre is one of those things that annoys me. After all it's not that difficult. When I point it out these days my wife just rolls her eyes. Of course many languages don't have the problem, where all you can say is, "la plume de ma tante" (the pen of my aunt) with nothing comparable to my aunt's pen being used.
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Post by tisbearself on Dec 10, 2021 1:46:47 GMT
Funny you should mention that apostrophe.
Yesterday I was looking for a reference work on victim souls that I read a few years back.
I discovered someone had written and was selling on Amazon a book about victim souls.
Unfortunately, he had titled it, in large letters on the cover, “Victim Soul’s”.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 10, 2021 3:21:52 GMT
Funny you should mention that apostrophe. Yesterday I was looking for a reference work on victim souls that I read a few years back. I discovered someone had written and was selling on Amazon a book about victim souls. Unfortunately, he had titled it, in large letters on the cover, “Victim Soul’s”. It's people who experience English primarily as a spoken language, and don't know or grasp the admittedly complicated spelling and punctuation conventions.
I can't spell in Polish to save my life... because I know it far more as a spoken language, than a written one. I know what it should be (for the most part), I just have to stop and think.
I was precociously hyper-literate from the age of 3, and my son demonstrated this even earlier. At the age of 2, he was reading the safety label on the gas fireplace (which we don't use) out loud! He hadn't been taught.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 10, 2021 3:32:48 GMT
You are right, he does go by Neville (one L or two?), I stand corrected:
As for people who use the "greengrocer's apostrophe" to make plurals, to-wit "banana's", "apple's", and so on, one gets the impression sometimes, that they are just guessing, they can't comprehend the difference between a plural and a possessive, and they do it hit-or-miss. I've seen it. I know I've told this story before, but I once worked in an ad shop for a woman who had just enough education to be dangerous. I challenged her use of the "greengrocer's apostrophe" and she stammered in a huff, "plurality denotes possession", or it may have been "possession denotes plurality". Utter ignorance --- my guess is that she stayed awake in freshman composition class just enough to have thought she heard something like this, and thought it made her sound intelligent. She didn't like me terribly much. That was her problem, not mine.
I would personally it Neville, i.e. with two Ls. I always been under the impression that he spells it with one. He is no help to us. I've just pulled "Gwynne's Latin" off the shelf but can only find his initials therein. I then visited his website where he again, is listed only as N. M Gwynne.
The greengrocer's apostrophre is one of those things that annoys me. After all it's not that difficult. When I point it out these days my wife just rolls her eyes. Of course many languages don't have the problem, where all you can say is, "la plume de ma tante" (the pen of my aunt) with nothing comparable to my aunt's pen being used.
German has a plural construction similar to English, though without the apostrophe, e.g., "Helgas Laden", "Helga's Store"). Strangely enough, the greengrocer's apostrophe is found in Dutch, in nouns whose singular ends in a vowel, and AFAIK, it's perfectly grammatical in that language. Something about keeping the vowels long. I don't know, I can pretty much understand written Dutch, but I can't really speak it. Thankfully, it's never been necessary for me when in the Benelux. |
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Post by tth1 on Dec 10, 2021 16:26:02 GMT
I would personally it Neville, i.e. with two Ls. I always been under the impression that he spells it with one. He is no help to us. I've just pulled "Gwynne's Latin" off the shelf but can only find his initials therein. I then visited his website where he again, is listed only as N. M Gwynne.
The greengrocer's apostrophre is one of those things that annoys me. After all it's not that difficult. When I point it out these days my wife just rolls her eyes. Of course many languages don't have the problem, where all you can say is, "la plume de ma tante" (the pen of my aunt) with nothing comparable to my aunt's pen being used.
German has a plural construction similar to English, though without the apostrophe, e.g., "Helgas Laden", "Helga's Store"). Strangely enough, the greengrocer's apostrophe is found in Dutch, in nouns whose singular ends in a vowel, and AFAIK, it's perfectly grammatical in that language. Something about keeping the vowels long. I don't know, I can pretty much understand written Dutch, but I can't really speak it. Thankfully, it's never been necessary for me when in the Benelux. My German and Dutch aren't beyond basic beginner's stage so I don't know. I'm wondering if the example Helgas Laden is just a particular way the Germans do things. For example, I know if you want to say a 'cup of tea' they omit the preoposition and simply say eine Tasse Tee. The only example I've come across in Dutch where "'s" is used is when a noun is made plural. For example, the Dutch for 'menu' is menu and for 'menus' it is menu's. |
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I just happen to own the Lewis and Short dictionary. I am told it's the best.