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Post by jimg on Jun 6, 2022 18:11:15 GMT
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Post by tth1 on Jun 10, 2022 11:36:02 GMT
I cannot understand why any Catholic would not want a funeral liturgy. Even if they had the Funeral Rite outside Mass it would be better than nothing.
However, I do sometimes wonder if the choice is actually that of the deceased. Obviously, when we are dead we are at the mercies of our families about the form of service we will have. I do not know about other countries but I believe here in England you can do nothing binding during your lifetime that compels your family to give you the funeral of your choice. It now seems to be standard practice to state those wishes in your will but I understand they are not enforceable.
I do agree with the article that at many funerals it does seem like the deceased is being canonised. Indeed, I believe the kind of eulogies given telling how wonderful the deceased was, are forbidden in Catholic funerals. However, this rule seems to be more honoured in the breach than in the observance.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2022 14:20:49 GMT
“Deceased members of the Christian faithful must be given ecclesiastical funerals according to the norm of law.”
There are Catholics who are not faithful members of the Church and haven't attended Mass for most of their adult lives. They don't get a funeral Mass, but a memorial service, usually at the gravesite. It's usually decided by the family members who were in charge of making the funeral arraignments.
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Post by jimg on Jun 11, 2022 19:06:19 GMT
When I learned that my cousin had died, it was noted that there would be no funeral and no services. She was to be cremated and the ashes scattered in the Gulf of Mexico. But I did have a Mass offered for her at a nearby abbey. One can always have a Mass offered.
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Post by Lost Sheep on Oct 26, 2022 15:15:16 GMT
From a practical standpoint, what is the point of a funeral mass?
The person is dead. He/She is either in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. If they are in Heaven they don't need prayers and if they are in Hell, no prayers are going to matter.
"Oh, but what if they're in Purgatory?"
Well, I think it is highly presumptuous on our part to think that we have the ability to change God's mind. If every prayer must caveated with "Thy will be done." then God is going to do what He darn well pleases and He is not interested in our input.
What's going to happen is going to happen.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 26, 2022 15:31:50 GMT
From a practical standpoint, what is the point of a funeral mass? The person is dead. He/She is either in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. If they are in Heaven they don't need prayers and if they are in Hell, no prayers are going to matter. "Oh, but what if they're in Purgatory?" Well, I think it is highly presumptuous on our part to think that we have the ability to change God's mind. If every prayer must caveated with "Thy will be done." then God is going to do what He darn well pleases and He is not interested in our input. What's going to happen is going to happen. You sound like my husband the Calvinist who didn't think it was necessary to pray because he figured God was going to take care of everything anyway and had made certain decisions already without human input. (Yes, I did tell him that was completely ridiculous.) The USCCB has explained on their page the purpose of Catholic funeral rites: "At the death of a Christian, whose life of faith was begun inthe waters of Baptism and strengthened at the Eucharistic table, the Church intercedes on behalf of the deceased because of its confident belief that death is not the end, nor does it break the bonds forged in life. The Church also ministers to the sorrowing and consoles them in the funeral rites with the comforting Word of God and the Sacrament of the Eucharist."www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/sacraments-and-sacramentals/bereavement-and-funerals/overview-of-catholic-funeral-ritesBy your reasoning we shouldn't bother praying for the dead at all. Or praying for anything else. That's contrary to Church teaching as well as to the USCCB statement. Assuming you are Catholic, and not a Calvinist like my late husband (Or even if you are), you may want to rethink. Your post also goes against the Church teaching that God is outside of time and could easily apply a Mass or prayers that we say in earthly time after a person's death, to help the same person during their life on Earth and help them to be saved in the first place. And even if the Mass or prayers somehow could not help the intended person, God would use it for another good purpose. No prayer is ever wasted. The Mass and prayers are also just as much for the living who mourn as for the deceased person. Having said all that, why in heaven's name would you think it is "presumptuous" to talk to God? Do you think he doesn't want to hear from us? He loves us. He likes it when we talk to him. It doesn't mean we always get our way, but he's not upset if we ask, and in fact there is a long tradition of people petitioning God with varying degrees of success, shown in Scripture all the way back to the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Don't you think it's "presumptuous" for you to just dismiss that? And if you love God then why wouldn't you want to talk to him, and have Mass said even if it was just to honor him?
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 26, 2022 16:23:39 GMT
Part of the process of funeral masses is to help deal with the grief as Bear notes. Now, not everyone needs that but many people do. My wife's Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches have as part of their rituals the following:- www.funeralguide.co.uk/help-resources/arranging-a-funeral/religious-funerals/orthodox-funeralsThe whole process provides closure for people and allows them to move on. As do rituals in Western Christianity, they allow people to express their grief and come to terms with it and move past it. They also express the hope that this is not the final reality as noted above.
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Post by iagosan on Oct 26, 2022 16:48:14 GMT
From a practical standpoint, what is the point of a funeral mass? The person is dead. He/She is either in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. If they are in Heaven they don't need prayers and if they are in Hell, no prayers are going to matter. "Oh, but what if they're in Purgatory?" Well, I think it is highly presumptuous on our part to think that we have the ability to change God's mind. If every prayer must caveated with "Thy will be done." then God is going to do what He darn well pleases and He is not interested in our input. What's going to happen is going to happen. Members of the early Church clearly believed in the custom of praying for the dead (itself, alluded to in the Books of Machabees.) Tertulian (who died in approx AD 24O) in his work De Monogamia ("On Matrimony") talks of this in Chapter 10
www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/on-monogamy-de-monogamia-11402
and St Augustine (died AD 430) wrote a special treatise on "How to help the dead". He says that the universal Church ..... observes the custom of giving a place in the prayers of the priest at the altar to the commemoration of the dead in his work "De cura gerenda pro mortius"
There are also memorial inscriptions in the Roman catacombs asking for the same and indeed the famous Stele of Abercius, errected in AD216 in Phrygia with the words " He that discerneth these things, every fellow-believer [namely], let him pray for Abercius." This is now in the Vatican museum. You can read about it here:
www.earlychristianwritings.com/info/abercius-cathen.html
This is before we get on to the the threefold fruit obtained when a person in the state of grace says a prayer with a supernatural intention. This is quite complex to explain, but briefly, one fruit can be applied for the benefit of others. As time is limited for me at the moment, I suggest that anyone interested can easily find the information via on line resources.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 26, 2022 23:35:11 GMT
I cannot understand why any Catholic would not want a funeral liturgy. Even if they had the Funeral Rite outside Mass it would be better than nothing. However, I do sometimes wonder if the choice is actually that of the deceased. Obviously, when we are dead we are at the mercies of our families about the form of service we will have. I do not know about other countries but I believe here in England you can do nothing binding during your lifetime that compels your family to give you the funeral of your choice. It now seems to be standard practice to state those wishes in your will but I understand they are not enforceable. I do agree with the article that at many funerals it does seem like the deceased is being canonised. Indeed, I believe the kind of eulogies given telling how wonderful the deceased was, are forbidden in Catholic funerals. However, this rule seems to be more honoured in the breach than in the observance. My father made it very clear, in no uncertain terms, that he did not want a funeral Mass, no visitation, nothing. I did arrange for committal rites, conferred by one of the deacons of our parish, took about ten minutes. My mother has given the same instructions, and when that time comes for her, she will have committal rites as well. I explained it to both of them, but their formation was woefully defective, and it's just a blind spot. I don't agree with it, but I have to respect it. Several Masses have been offered for my father, including thirty consecutive Traditional Latin Gregorian Masses. My mother knows nothing of the Gregorians and never will (the large stipend would be her problem with it, again, she simply doesn't comprehend the concept). When that time has to come for my mother, I shall do likewise. She knows nothing of that either. She was emotionally unable to attend my father's committal rites, and she has never been able to bear to visit the mausoleum. She knows I would take her anytime, but it will probably never happen. Every family is different.
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Post by Lost Sheep on Oct 28, 2022 11:43:32 GMT
Having said all that, why in heaven's name would you think it is "presumptuous" to talk to God? Do you think he doesn't want to hear from us? He loves us. He likes it when we talk to him. It doesn't mean we always get our way, but he's not upset if we ask, and in fact there is a long tradition of people petitioning God with varying degrees of success, shown in Scripture all the way back to the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Don't you think it's "presumptuous" for you to just dismiss that? And if you love God then why wouldn't you want to talk to him, and have Mass said even if it was just to honor him? I did not say it was presumptuous to talk to God. I said it was presumptuous to think we can change His mind. I don't want to hijack this thread and get off on a tangent but a lot of this has to do with my ongoing love/hate relationship with God. This is not the appropriate venue to tell you my life story nor do I have the time to do so. But I believe that despite what we have been brainwashed to believe, I do not see God as a universal force for good and He does not really love everyone. He has his favorites. Many are called; few are chosen. Sometimes I think that I am simply not one of the chosen. We cannot presume to know what God is thinking. People believe what they want to believe about God because it makes them feel comfortable. We believe but we don't really know everything to be a fact. When someone can convinced me to my satisfaction that God really does care then maybe I'll change my mind. So far, that has not happened.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 28, 2022 11:45:45 GMT
'We cannot presume to know what God is thinking.' But you are doing just that in presuming 'he does not love everyone' and that, 'He has his favourites.'
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 28, 2022 13:50:10 GMT
Having said all that, why in heaven's name would you think it is "presumptuous" to talk to God? Do you think he doesn't want to hear from us? He loves us. He likes it when we talk to him. It doesn't mean we always get our way, but he's not upset if we ask, and in fact there is a long tradition of people petitioning God with varying degrees of success, shown in Scripture all the way back to the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Don't you think it's "presumptuous" for you to just dismiss that? And if you love God then why wouldn't you want to talk to him, and have Mass said even if it was just to honor him? I did not say it was presumptuous to talk to God. I said it was presumptuous to think we can change His mind. I don't want to hijack this thread and get off on a tangent but a lot of this has to do with my ongoing love/hate relationship with God. This is not the appropriate venue to tell you my life story nor do I have the time to do so. But I believe that despite what we have been brainwashed to believe, I do not see God as a universal force for good and He does not really love everyone. He has his favorites. Many are called; few are chosen. Sometimes I think that I am simply not one of the chosen. We cannot presume to know what God is thinking. People believe what they want to believe about God because it makes them feel comfortable. We believe but we don't really know everything to be a fact. When someone can convinced me to my satisfaction that God really does care then maybe I'll change my mind. So far, that has not happened. My dear mother struggles with exactly the same thing, as did my father before he died. He lost his speech in the final months of his illness, couldn't walk, lay on the couch with his hands stretched upwards, we asked him if he was praying to die, and he said yes. I had taught him about the Apostolic Pardon before his death, and I want to think he was cooperating with this. Towards the end, he hardly knew he was in the world. The end came peacefully and gently one afternoon.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 28, 2022 14:44:19 GMT
The only one who could convince you is God himself. I'll pray that happens.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 28, 2022 14:45:36 GMT
Yeah, that reminds me of the general advice we got as kids that no-one can truly bring anyone to the Church but God ultimately.
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Post by Lost Sheep on Oct 30, 2022 23:56:04 GMT
The only one who could convince you is God himself. I'll pray that happens. Then He's got some work to do.
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