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Post by iagosan on Aug 24, 2022 17:10:52 GMT
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 24, 2022 17:20:25 GMT
They sound like my kind of priests. Wearing a black soutane is incidental, but as far as talking about sin and offering the Latin Mass, count me in. |
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 25, 2022 1:06:43 GMT
Eh, if that's Fr. Brendan in the video then it looks like he has one foot in the grave. He forgot to add "Now Get Off My Lawn!" to his statement. I bet when he was a young priest, some oldster said the same things about him and his peers. The world is not going to end because the young priests coming in are different from the ones who went before. Indeed, if the newer generation manages to commit fewer crimes and stay in the priesthood more often than their elders, it'll be an improvement regardless of whether they talk about sin or fluffy kittens. |
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Post by ralfy on Aug 28, 2022 6:01:59 GMT
Similar could still be seen up to the 1970s in some places: priests in black, communion rails and confessionals in the school chapel, homilies and even retreat and recollection talks about hell, and so on. Decades before that, students in convent schools weren't allowed to read the Bible except with the supervision of a teaching nun or priest.
But there was some fine-tuning. For example, one 1970s recollection talk to grade schoolers in an all-boys Jesuit school referred to Harvey, the tall, pink rabbit from the 1950 movie featuring Jimmy Stewart. In a way, Jesus is like Harvey: others will tell you they don't see Him, but He's there, and when you do something wrong, He'll tell you. So the next time you think of doing something wrong, you gotta ask yourself if what you want to do is your plan or His. Sometimes, you'll try to convince yourself that you want to do "My plan! My plan!" when you need to do otherwise and listen to what He wants.
No references to eternal damnation, but the medieval idea of God's presence everywhere and anywhere remained. And if it wasn't a reference to movies, it was to sports: taking it for the team and all that.
The best one was the idea that the goal of Jesuit education isn't to take the brightest and the best but to take the most prideful, then grind that pride to the ground, and forge it so that what emerges is even better than what enrolled.
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Post by po18guy on Aug 28, 2022 7:19:25 GMT
The human pendulum applies to all things, whether cultural or religious. No priest is a finished product. We can only pray that more answer the call and that they remain on fire and even more important, obedient as they mature in their vocation.
We see a suppression of the Latin mass, but at the same time we also see a correction of the Collect* to conform more closely with the Latin ("one God for ever and ever" > "God for ever and ever"). Strange times, these.
*https://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/change-to-the-collect-formula/72545
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 28, 2022 18:08:31 GMT
The human pendulum applies to all things, whether cultural or religious. No priest is a finished product. We can only pray that more answer the call and that they remain on fire and even more important, obedient as they mature in their vocation. We see a suppression of the Latin mass, but at the same time we also see a correction of the Collect* to conform more closely with the Latin ("one God for ever and ever" > "God for ever and ever"). Strange times, these. *https://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/change-to-the-collect-formula/72545 You saw the correction of the Collect when Cardinal Sarah was head of the Congregation for Divine Worship. It was his doing. Note that all this business with suppressing the Latin Mass didn't happen until Cardinal Sarah was gone and Cardinal Roche took his place. Yes, it's strange times, and gonna get even stranger when it's time to pick the successor to Pope Francis with all these newly-minted, supposedly liberal and anti-TLM cardinals, casting their votes. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 28, 2022 18:41:07 GMT
The human pendulum applies to all things, whether cultural or religious. No priest is a finished product. We can only pray that more answer the call and that they remain on fire and even more important, obedient as they mature in their vocation. We see a suppression of the Latin mass, but at the same time we also see a correction of the Collect* to conform more closely with the Latin ("one God for ever and ever" > "God for ever and ever"). Strange times, these. *https://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/change-to-the-collect-formula/72545 You saw the correction of the Collect when Cardinal Sarah was head of the Congregation for Divine Worship. It was his doing. Note that all this business with suppressing the Latin Mass didn't happen until Cardinal Sarah was gone and Cardinal Roche took his place. Yes, it's strange times, and gonna get even stranger when it's time to pick the successor to Pope Francis with all these newly-minted, supposedly liberal and anti-TLM cardinals, casting their votes. I've had to wonder whether TC was not so much the idea of Pope Francis --- he was pretty mellow about the SSPX when he was in Argentina --- as his advisors, Archbishop Roche and others. And you always wonder, were there unrelated things behind the scenes, possibly used as leverage --- "either suppress the Latin Mass, or we're going to leak details about Scandal X", something totally unrelated to the TLM? There have been politics behind the scenes at the Vatican for as long as there has been a Vatican. It all started with Judas. (And, yes, I know, there wasn't a Vatican at the time of Judas. My meaning should be clear.) |
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Post by po18guy on Aug 28, 2022 18:46:53 GMT
According to Servant of God Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., Judas Iscariot was included in the twelve (among other reasons) to prepare us for apostate bishops.
Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit guides the consistory and our job is to pray and be filled with joy at the Gospel. A holy detachment of sorts.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 28, 2022 20:14:06 GMT
According to Servant of God Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., Judas Iscariot was included in the twelve (among other reasons) to prepare us for apostate bishops. Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit guides the consistory and our job is to pray and be filled with joy at the Gospel. A holy detachment of sorts. Yes, but there is the permissive will of God as well as the positive will of God. How this figures into which bishops are created cardinals, and which ones are not, is not ours to know. |
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 28, 2022 20:29:57 GMT
Roche is too new to have such ideas. He's made a number of bumbling mistakes in his short time on the job.
From what I have read, the anti-TLM push came from a lot of bishops in continental Europe and particularly some influentials ones in Italy, probably in France too, where a TLM is seen as a dog whistle for all sorts of serious issues that usually don't crop up in the USA. Also, a lot of bishops probably weren't jazzed on the reading of the previous standards as meaning that if 10 people got together at their local parish and demanded a TLM, the bishop was supposed to provide priests and resources to make that happen. I don't have anything against TLM, but it's impractical to push for one at every parish amd frankly, a good many Catholics at parishes don't want it and wouldn't appreciate it if they had it.
I'm happy if the diocese just has sufficient TLMs around that there's a reliable. centrally located one or two on Sundays and holy days and maybe even some weekdays that most people don't have to drive 40 or 50 miles to access. It's much easier for me to find a TLM when it's happening every week at the FSSP quasi-parish than some years ago when it seemed to be migrating all over the downtown depending on which church felt like hosting it on a given day (you'd get there and find there was nowhere to park etc).
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 28, 2022 22:21:50 GMT
Roche is too new to have such ideas. He's made a number of bumbling mistakes in his short time on the job. From what I have read, the anti-TLM push came from a lot of bishops in continental Europe and particularly some influentials ones in Italy, probably in France too, where a TLM is seen as a dog whistle for all sorts of serious issues that usually don't crop up in the USA. Also, a lot of bishops probably weren't jazzed on the reading of the previous standards as meaning that if 10 people got together at their local parish and demanded a TLM, the bishop was supposed to provide priests and resources to make that happen. I don't have anything against TLM, but it's impractical to push for one at every parish amd frankly, a good many Catholics at parishes don't want it and wouldn't appreciate it if they had it. I'm happy if the diocese just has sufficient TLMs around that there's a reliable. centrally located one or two on Sundays and holy days and maybe even some weekdays that most people don't have to drive 40 or 50 miles to access. It's much easier for me to find a TLM when it's happening every week at the FSSP quasi-parish than some years ago when it seemed to be migrating all over the downtown depending on which church felt like hosting it on a given day (you'd get there and find there was nowhere to park etc). I don't doubt what you say, but what do you mean by "all sorts of serious issues that usually don't crop up in the USA"? My experience, in having attended a panoply of diocesan, SSPX, and independent TLM venues, is that you have a wide range of ideas, and a lot of spillover between various groups, but nothing inclining towards fascism, overthrow of the existing social order, xenophobia, or virulent anti-Semitism, the most you have is the occasional conspiracy theorist or wistful reminisces over past regimes, such as the Hapsburgs and Blessed Karl of Austria. Pretty harmless stuff. I'm a monarchist myself, but it rarely comes up in conversation, it's more of an intellectual thing with me, than any aspiration of it actually becoming a reality. There is kind of a stink-eye thing about the COVID vaccine --- I have had three shots (Pfizer) but I don't volunteer that fact. There's really nothing to see. |
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Post by iagosan on Aug 29, 2022 5:59:26 GMT
Roche is too new to have such ideas. He's made a number of bumbling mistakes in his short time on the job....
Not to mention that the in 2007 the E.F. was made more widely available because it was deemed to have never been abrogated.
Given that many are very fond of speaking of the gradual development of doctrine at the moment, lurches from one interpretation to another, don’t do much for the Church’s credibility. But I suppose the scandals of molestation and financial corruption by clergy in much of the world, the rampant homosexual promiscuity of the Irish clergy within their seminaries (the worst kept “secret” in the world b.t.w) plus “Politics before Faith” c.f. China and North / South America, have not helped much either. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 29, 2022 6:12:16 GMT
Roche is too new to have such ideas. He's made a number of bumbling mistakes in his short time on the job....
Not to mention that the in 2007 the E.F. was made more widely available because it was deemed to have never been abrogated.
Given that many are very fond of speaking of the gradual development of doctrine at the moment, lurches from one interpretation to another, don’t do much for the Church’s credibility. But I suppose the scandals of molestation and financial corruption by clergy in much of the world, the rampant homosexual promiscuity of the Irish clergy within their seminaries (the worst kept “secret” in the world b.t.w) plus “Politics before Faith” c.f. China and North / South America, have not helped much either.What is this business of "moving beyond or out of the Catholic faith"? I haven't heard of him saying something like that. |
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Post by iagosan on Aug 29, 2022 6:25:58 GMT
His talking about moving beyond or out of the Catholic faith, simply makes no sense when only a year ago the celebration of the pre-Conciliar Liturgy was perfectly fine and accepted.
Not to mention that the in 2007 the E.F. was made more widely available because it was deemed to have never been abrogated.
Given that many are very fond of speaking of the gradual development of doctrine at the moment, lurches from one interpretation to another, don’t do much for the Church’s credibility. But I suppose the scandals of molestation and financial corruption by clergy in much of the world, the rampant homosexual promiscuity of the Irish clergy within their seminaries (the worst kept “secret” in the world b.t.w) plus “Politics before Faith” c.f. China and North / South America, have not helped much either. What is this business of "moving beyond or out of the Catholic faith"? I haven't heard of him saying something like that.
28 AUGUST 2022, THE TABLET
by Christopher Lambwww.thetablet.co.uk/UserFiles/images/news/20220827T1943-CONSISTORY-NEW-CARDINALS-1747235_preview.jpgPope Francis greets new English Cardinal Arthur Roche, prefect of the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, during a consistory for the creation of 20 new cardinals yesterday.
CNS photo/Vatican Media
England’s new cardinal says those who are “stubbornly opposing” the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council are in danger of adopting a position that is no longer Catholic.
Cardinal Arthur Roche, the Prefect of the Dicastery for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, became the third English cardinal to be created by Pope Francis after he received his red hat during a ceremony in St Peter’s Basilica on 27 August.
Roche was among 20 prelates admitted to the College of Cardinals, with 16 of them under the age of 80 and eligible to vote in a future conclave.
The former Bishop of Leeds has one of the most sensitive and demanding jobs in the Church’s central government, requiring him to work closely with the Pope and with the world’s bishops in overseeing Catholic worship.
A trusted adviser to Francis, the Yorkshire-born church leader was recently named by the Pope as a member of the Dicastery for Bishops, an influential Vatican body which plays a critical role in helping the Pope appoint bishops across the world. When Francis read out the names of the latest batch of cardinals earlier in the year, Roche’s was the first on the list.
But the 72-year-old cardinal has also been under attack himself during a time when, as liturgy prefect, he has been closely involved in re-establishing restrictions on the celebrations of the old rite, the form of worship used by the Church before the reforms mandated by the 1962-65 Vatican council. The new restrictions have been met with a mixture of anger and defiance by some traditionalist Catholics.
According to the new constitution of the Roman Curia, Roche’s department is tasked with promoting the “sacred liturgy in accordance with the renewal undertaken by the Second Vatican Council”. It’s a point the cardinal was keen to emphasise ahead of his elevation.
“The council is the highest legislation that exists in the Church,” he told The Tablet and the National Catholic Reporter. “If you disregard that, you are putting yourself sideways, to the edges of the Church. You are becoming more Protestant than you are Catholic.”
The reforms to Catholic worship decreed by Vatican II, which emerged from a liturgical movement that dates back to the nineteenth century, included a greater emphasis on the active participation of ordinary believers in the liturgy and saw the sacraments no longer only celebrated in Latin but in local languages.
“After two world wars which had been initiated in the heart of Christian Europe, it was obvious that there needed to be an enormous reform within the Church,” Roche said in reference to Vatican II, which began 17 years after the end of World War II.
“That reform is taking place, but it’s a slow process because there are those who are dragging their feet with regard to this and not only dragging their feet but stubbornly opposing what the Church has actually decreed. That’s a very serious matter. In the end, people have to ask themselves: am I really a Catholic, or am I more of a Protestant?”
The pre-Vatican II liturgy requires a priest to say the prayers of the Mass in Latin, often inaudibly, while facing ad orientem (“facing east” and with his back to the people).
Although a significant minority are drawn to its contemplative, “otherworldly” style, celebrations of the older liturgy have also become a rallying point for dissent from the Francis pontificate and opposition to Vatican II.
When the Pope issued his restrictions on the Old Rite, he told the bishops he was seeking to protect the unity of the Church while ending the suggestion there are two different churches with two different liturgies. These restrictions were then followed up with guidelines on how to apply them by Roche’s office.
Nevertheless, supporters of the Old Rite continue to make their case across various media platforms. Two days before the consistory to create the new cardinals, the American actor Shia LaBeouf announced he had been received into the Catholic Church and said that his conversion was partly due to the older, Latin Mass.
He made his remarks in an interview with Bishop Robert Barron, the leader of the Diocese of Winona-Rochester in the United States who established the Catholic media ministry outfit, Word on Fire. LaBeouf, 36, who won a Bafta in 2008, said he experienced the Latin liturgy while preparing to play St Padre Pio in a new film about the Italian saint. He said the Latin Mass affects him deeply “because it feels like they’re not selling me a car”.
Bishop Barron, who has more than three million followers on Facebook, is visiting London next month when he will address an event in Parliament, celebrate Mass at Westminster Cathedral and give a talk to a gathering of more than 1,000 Catholic leaders. The visit, from 11-18 September, is being organised by Catholic Voices in collaboration with Word on Fire.
In response to LaBeouf’s remarks, Cardinal Roche said it is a priest’s job to talk to people about their experiences of the liturgy and that he’d like to know “why he thinks that, what are his reasons for saying that, and what is his experience”. He emphasised that the Mass should be celebrated with “great dignity” and that this is not a trait that only belongs to the older liturgy.
“The Latin Mass is still available in the 1962 Missal for those who wish for that,” he said, adding that Mass celebrated in Latin in the rite of Paul VI (post-Vatican II) should also be more readily available.
At the beginning of the consistory ceremony in St Peter’s Basilica, Cardinal Roche addressed the Pope on behalf of the new cardinals. It is customary for the cardinal who was named first by the Pope to carry out this task.
“Our mission today is to help you carry this cross and not to increase its weight. With great joy, we wish to walk at your side knowing that to you have been entrusted the keys of the Kingdom,” Roche said in front of a packed basilica with 180 cardinals and thousands of pilgrims who had travelled to Rome for the consistory. “From you, Holy Father, we learn to resist the temptation of any narrowness of mind and heart which shrinks to the size of self instead of expanding "to the measure of the fullness of Christ.”
Among those present in the basilica were several government delegations sent to witness the occasion. The United Kingdom delegation included Lord McFall, the Lord Speaker of the House of Lords and a Catholic, and Lord Ahmad, a Foreign Office minister. Cardinal Vincent Nichols of Westminster and several bishops from England and Wales were also in Rome for the ceremony. After the ceremony, they greeted the new English cardinal in the magnificent “Aula delle Benedizioni” (the Hall of Blessings) inside the Vatican’s Apostolic Palace.
The ceremony marked the eighth consistory of the Francis pontificate and once again showed the Pope’s desire to ensure the men who will take part in a future papal election come from a broad cross-section of the global Church. Over the years, he has significantly increased the number of cardinals coming from Asia, Africa and Latin America.
On 27 August, four bishops from countries that had never had cardinals before, including Mongolia, Paraguay, Singapore and East Timor, were given red hats. Archbishop Anthony Poola of Hydeberad India is the first Dalit (from the so-called “untouchable” caste) to become a cardinal, and Dom Leonardo Steiner is the first to lead a diocese in the Amazon rainforest. Also receiving a red hat was the world’s youngest cardinal, Giorgio Marengo, a 48-year-old Italian missionary in Mongolia, and the Bishop of San Diego, Robert McElroy, a bishop from the United States who shares Francis’ pastoral priorities.
Making cardinals is the closest thing a Pope has to succession planning, and Francis has now chosen 63 per cent of the 132 cardinal electors. In his homily, the Pope urged the cardinals to be attentive to the less public but more pastoral elements of their ministry. He reminded them that Cardinal Agostino Casaroli, the influential Cold War-era Vatican diplomat, made weekly visits to juvenile inmates in a Rome prison and even joked about an Italian priest who knew not only all his parishioners' names but also the family dog.
“A man of apostolic zeal is impelled by the fire of the Spirit to be concerned, courageously, with things great and small,” he said before quoting the phrase: “To suffer no restriction from anything however great, and yet to be contained in the tiniest of things, that is divine.” This maxim was composed in 1640 as a way to describe the genius of St Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits.
Cardinal Roche is now the highest-ranking English-born priest to serve in the Roman Curia since Cardinal Rafael Merry del Val served as the Holy See’s Secretary of State from 1903 to 1914. Roche said he felt “very humbled” by his appointment as a cardinal and that it was an “enormous responsibility” as it meant a “broader remit” for advising the Pope.
He said it was a moment for Church leadership to be “more transparent, more open” and ready to build communion. From 29 and 30 August, cardinals from across the world will gather in the Vatican to discuss the Pope’s new constitution on the Roman Curia, which includes a series of landmark reforms.
Cardinal Roche said the new constitution was about the “nature of the relationship of the Pope with the bishops of the world and using his curia to be a bridge between the two”. He said it meant “greater collaboration at the episcopal conference level and individual bishop level with the See of Peter” while emphasising the Church’s missionary naturewww.thetablet.co.uk/news/15805/stubborn-opposition-to-vatican-ii-not-catholic-says-cardinal |
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 29, 2022 11:54:04 GMT
Yeah I just got a good chuckle out of Roche saying the 1962 Latin Mass is still “available”. Like he hasn’t been knocking himself out to make it unavailable.
Plus I thought Shia explained in pretty good depth why he prefers the TLM in his lengthy interview. Not sure what else there is to talk about or find out.
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