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Post by copper on Sept 9, 2022 14:34:09 GMT
I have always wondered why we don't follow the Jewish customs, holidays, feasts, etc. since they're in the Bible. Why do we celebrate a holiday like Easter (which arguably has connections to paganism), compared to Passover?
Or another example-- why don't we recognize that some animals are "unclean"? The Bible talked about unclean food, but Jewish law specifically lays out that certain animals are unclean. We derive our food from those animals (if one is an omnivore).
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 9, 2022 16:51:20 GMT
Matthew 15:11-20
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said to him: Dost thou know that the Pharisees, when they heard this word, were scandalized?
13 But he answering them, said: Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they are blind, and leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.
15 And Peter answering, said to him: Expound to us this parable.
16 But he said: Are you also yet without understanding?
17 Do you not understand, that whatsoever entereth into the mouth, goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the privy?
18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart, and those things defile a man.
19 For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.
20 These are the things that defile a man. But to eat with unwashed hands doth not defile a man.
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Post by copper on Sept 10, 2022 2:25:25 GMT
Isn't that a parable of unwashed hands, rather than unclean food?
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Post by tisbearself on Sept 10, 2022 11:12:39 GMT
I have always wondered why we don't follow the Jewish customs, holidays, feasts, etc. since they're in the Bible. Why do we celebrate a holiday like Easter (which arguably has connections to paganism), compared to Passover? Or another example-- why don't we recognize that some animals are "unclean"? The Bible talked about unclean food, but Jewish law specifically lays out that certain animals are unclean. We derive our food from those animals (if one is an omnivore). We’re not Jewish. Christianity is for everyone, including gentiles who had/ have zero connection to the Jewish heritage. Jesus made a new covenant and we follow that. He’s concerned about what is in our hearts and minds, not what we put in our mouths to eat. This is shown in Scripture by Peter’s vision in Acts 10:9-16 where God lets him know that all animals are “clean” and permissible to eat. Also, Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of Our Lord. It is the greatest feast in the Church and is not pagan. Why wouldn’t we celebrate it? Scripture and Church history reflect that, because the first Christians were all observant Jews, there was debate in the early Church, for example between Peter and Paul, as to whether the new gentile converts to Christianity would have to follow all the Jewish customs such as circumcision and food rules and Jewish holidays etc. The resulting decision was that they did not, and we don’t either. Edited to add, theguvnor’s post is relevant because it shows Jesus rejecting the Jewish laws on clean and unclean. It doesn’t matter that it’s about handwashing and not foods. Jesus did this repeatedly; another example is the parable of the Good Samaritan, where a priest and a Levite both fail to help an injured man in the road because doing so would have made them unclean and unable to attend to their duties. The person who actually exercises Christian charity is a non-Jew who doesn’t observe the cleanliness rules. |
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 10, 2022 11:39:11 GMT
Yes - my wife follows some Jewish customs due to her grandfather's influence and that of some other people in her family tree. But she admits that is just her own preference. She prefers not to ever mix meat or milk dishes together and usually sits appalled when I drink milk while eating a hamburger and comments on how barbaric I am. But that's a personal joke between us and not meant seriously. But if you look at the insane complexity of running a Kosher kitchen you will soon realize why even many less devout Jews don't bother keeping Kosher. Also, Jewish law is not absolutely clear cut and charity is supposed to take priority over other concerns and Christ was upbraiding those who had distorted that.
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Post by katy777 on Sept 10, 2022 17:40:46 GMT
Yes - my wife follows some Jewish customs due to her grandfather's influence and that of some other people in her family tree. But she admits that is just her own preference. She prefers not to ever mix meat or milk dishes together and usually sits appalled when I drink milk while eating a hamburger and comments on how barbaric I am. But that's a personal joke between us and not meant seriously. But if you look at the insane complexity of running a Kosher kitchen you will soon realize why even many less devout Jews don't bother keeping Kosher. Also, Jewish law is not absolutely clear cut and charity is supposed to take priority over other concerns and Christ was upbraiding those who had distorted that. There is a difference in Jewish customs.. Hasidic and other orthodox.. the mitzvah of wearingwigs after marriage and mitzvah of going to ocean or bathhouse for women for cleansing etall.... Jesus told us in the Bible about the many many Jewish laws and reduced it , in His majesty.... He knew what was important. And what was devolved from pharisees. Which He opposed. |
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Post by katy777 on Sept 10, 2022 17:47:23 GMT
I have always wondered why we don't follow the Jewish customs, holidays, feasts, etc. since they're in the Bible. Why do we celebrate a holiday like Easter (which arguably has connections to paganism), compared to Passover? Or another example-- why don't we recognize that some animals are "unclean"? The Bible talked about unclean food, but Jewish law specifically lays out that certain animals are unclean. We derive our food from those animals (if one is an omnivore). Jesus instructs us not to listen to pharisees . |
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 10, 2022 18:21:31 GMT
Yes - my wife follows some Jewish customs due to her grandfather's influence and that of some other people in her family tree. But she admits that is just her own preference. She prefers not to ever mix meat or milk dishes together and usually sits appalled when I drink milk while eating a hamburger and comments on how barbaric I am. But that's a personal joke between us and not meant seriously. But if you look at the insane complexity of running a Kosher kitchen you will soon realize why even many less devout Jews don't bother keeping Kosher. Also, Jewish law is not absolutely clear cut and charity is supposed to take priority over other concerns and Christ was upbraiding those who had distorted that. There is a difference in Jewish customs.. Hasidic and other orthodox.. the mitzvah of wearingwigs after marriage and mitzvah of going to ocean or bathhouse for women for cleansing etall.... Jesus told us in the Bible about the many many Jewish laws and reduced it , in His majesty.... He knew what was important. And what was devolved from pharisees. Which He opposed. |
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Post by po18guy on Sept 10, 2022 22:37:44 GMT
"New and everlasting covenant" pretty much says it all.
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 10, 2022 23:43:57 GMT
It gives us an overall picture - looking at the details of that picture could take a lifetime. Jewish law does not apply to Gentiles, but Catholics who are Jewish are free to carry on following Jewish custom. Jews themselves who are observant are notorious for telling people not to convert to Judaism as nothing prevents Gentiles from being favoured by God or participating in any future afterlife (whether there is one or not is a source of debate in Judaism) but if they become Jewish they become bound by Jewish law and most observant Jews would tell you that's hard going. Let's see if you're an observant Orthodox Jew that means you can't light the cooker on the Sabbath, can't use a car, can't do shopping etc. etc. You have to live with walking distance of a Synagogue as you can't drive to one as that's forbidden on Sabbath. See where it's getting awkward already? My late uncle married a Polish Jewish lady as his second wife and she was far from observant but even so it meant when she died they couldn't be buried together and all sorts of other issues like that. Just as due to my wife being Russian Orthodox she and I cannot be buried together as her Church forbids that. Or to borrow from a quote attributed to Hillel, 'That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation. Go and study it.'
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Post by copper on Sept 11, 2022 3:35:19 GMT
Does anyone know about why the Sabbath was moved from Saturday to Sunday?
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Post by tisbearself on Sept 11, 2022 4:58:18 GMT
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 11, 2022 10:50:16 GMT
Yep, that question is always popping up - and it usually proceeds from a poor understanding of what differentiates Sunday from the Sabbath. It's a favourite question of JW's and SDA's and they normally get annoyed when you give them links like yours or point out it shows a poor (and often caricatured) understanding of another faith.
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Post by tisbearself on Sept 11, 2022 12:55:03 GMT
Well, it's easy to see how Catholics get confused when we have Jesus in Matthew 5:18 stating that nothing will pass from the Law until the end of the world, but then he and the Church seem to throw out most of it as concerns eating pork and shellfish, keeping the Jewish Sabbath, celebrating Jewish holidays, circumcision, divorce, wearing mixed fabrics, the weird bitter water test for women suspected of adultery, etc. Not that I'm sorry to see that stuff go, but most catechesis for youth or RCIA does not bother to discuss this subject.
It was pointed out on the last Reddit thread where somebody asked the same questions as copper that this business was actually the subject of the first Church council, documented in Acts 15, which dealt with (as I said above) whether new gentile converts to Christianity were expected to practice all the Jewish customs that the observant Jews turned Christians were already practicing.
Apologists also differ in whether they see Jesus as throwing out old Jewish law once he fulfilled it via his death and resurrection, or whether he kept it but just interpreted it properly with emphasis on love of God and neighbor rather than technical stuff about what you eat or whether you washed your hands first etc.
To make matters more confusing, with all these Catholics rediscovering the previously-mostly-ignored Old Testament after Vatican II and making Jesse trees and celebrating Bible heroes like David, you had Catholics in the 70s wanting to hold their version of Passover (aka Seder supper) and that sort of thing, either as a nod to our Jewish roots or as an ecumenical gesture. The bishops eventually put the kibosh on most of that as theologically it wasn't Catholic tradition and was more like cultural misappropriation that actual Jewish people probably didn't like.
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 11, 2022 13:57:14 GMT
This is possibly where my upbringing is different from any US Catholics - these issues all came up as ones under discussion in the classroom and in my case we were lucky enough to have a Polish priest who spoke Hebrew fluently and was also able to borrow a Rabbi or two from the local Jewish community come and talk to us as he said priest had been in the camps and hid quite a few Jewish people in WW2 so he was held in high esteem in that community. When died it was as though the whole Jewish community turned out. Technically Orthodox Jews are not meant to enter Catholic Churches - that was getting liberally ignored at that priest's funeral.
I view Christ a placing a correct emphasis on the hierarchy of virtues and also my view is anyone wanted to follow Jewish customs if they were a Jewish Christian but if you were a Gentile originally don't feel you need to do. One of the Churches that does seem to retain a fairly big slice of Jewish heritage is the Ethiopian Orthodox one as pork is generally not considered suitable for human consumption and forbidden. Mentioning Jesse Trees,Jesse Tree icons are big thing in some parts of the EO world but have fallen out of favour largely elsewhere. When I put one up my father hadn't got a clue what it was and neither had his sister until I noted it shows Christ's descent. Mind you icons are just simply not part of their cultural heritage. I'm definitely not going to be hold muckabout versions of Passover as I'd consider that seriously disrespectful to Jews and Christians alike.
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