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Post by tisbearself on Sept 11, 2022 14:23:20 GMT
When I was growing up, there were many parts of USA that had few or no Jewish people, sometimes because there just didn't happen to be many in certain areas, but often due to historical antisemitism in real estate sales that tended to create Jewish enclaves separate from the ones for Christians. Very often, progressive Catholics would be making this stuff like Seder suppers up as they went along, probably based on something written by another progressive Catholic, with no interaction or input from actual Jewish people. My hometown had few if any Jewish people, they all tended to live in other suburbs about a half hour or hour away. Growing up I read all kinds of children's and YA books about Jewish children and young people living in places like New York City or surviving the Holocaust, it really seemed like every other book was about some Jewish family, but I never actually met a Jewish person or even saw Jewish food till I was 17 and in college.
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Post by po18guy on Sept 11, 2022 18:59:49 GMT
Copper, are/were you Seventh Day Adventist? Or Seventh Day Baptist?
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 11, 2022 19:06:57 GMT
There are only a few thousand Jews in Ireland but as I grew up more in a part of London with loads of Jewish people you couldn't avoid getting to know Jewish people. You had secular Jews who were fairly often married to non-Jews, moderately observant Jews who might marry out and Hasidic Jews who never married out. My father's friend Monty is Jewish and old enough to remember events like the Battle of Cable Street as a young boy. His late wife was non-Jewish and there were quite a lot of mixed couples like this around us growing up. Jewish food and Eastern European popped up in supermarkets all the time as a result. I remember relatives from Ireland visiting and asking why these people were walking around wearing black coats all day and my father trying to explain. If you want the most harmless neighbours who are never going to bother you and are the world's lowest crime risk go live next to a Hasidic Jewish community. Your main annoyance will come on Saturday morning because people will ask you will you switch the oven on in their house if they know you and stuff like that. I lost count as a small kid of how many times some woman would ask my mother, 'Rose, would you switch the oven on for me. I forgot to do it last night. Generally, if non-Jews did that it was considered polite to give people something for it. If you asked a kid the neighbours would give out biscuits or confectionery so kids liked being asked to do it. Out landlady would ask me to turn lights on and off for me if I could reach them - bear in mind I was a small kid at this point. She'd ask my mother to do something like turn the washing machine on and off or start up the oven and stop it if she was at home.
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Post by copper on Sept 12, 2022 13:30:08 GMT
I was never Seventh-Day Adventists or Baptist. I'm asking these questions out of curiosity and also because it's that time of year close to Sukkot, and I recall reading a Christian blogger who wrote about celebrating the holiday. That seemed a little odd to me, so I decided to do some reading on whether there are Christians who adhere to the Jewish customs and holidays. After some online searching, I did encounter this blog (warning: it seems mildly anti-Catholic): biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2017/05/13/what-is-the-lords-day-sunday-sabbath-or-something-else/Based on what I understand, it was Constantine who moved observe of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 12, 2022 13:35:07 GMT
As Bearself noted observation of the Sabbath was never moved at all. Sukkot would be something of a headache for many Christians to follow if they tried it. Not all Jews follow it to the letter, especially in less temperate climates or if there are elderly or ill people in the home.
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 12, 2022 13:59:37 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Sept 12, 2022 15:15:31 GMT
I was never Seventh-Day Adventists or Baptist. I'm asking these questions out of curiosity and also because it's that time of year close to Sukkot, and I recall reading a Christian blogger who wrote about celebrating the holiday. That seemed a little odd to me, so I decided to do some reading on whether there are Christians who adhere to the Jewish customs and holidays. After some online searching, I did encounter this blog (warning: it seems mildly anti-Catholic): biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2017/05/13/what-is-the-lords-day-sunday-sabbath-or-something-else/Based on what I understand, it was Constantine who moved observe of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Be careful of non-Catholic blogs. They generally do not reflect Catholic teaching and often contain many errors or misrepresentations of Catholic belief. Catholics should only be getting their information on Catholic teaching from A) the official Catechism of the Catholic Church, first and foremost, and B) very reliable secondary Catholic sources, which would include Vatican Media, EWTN, Catholic Answers apologists, and official publications of a Catholic diocese. These generally will reference the Catechism. I have given you the teaching from the Catechism above. The Sabbath was not moved. Sunday is not the Sabbath.
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 12, 2022 17:31:10 GMT
That blog is more dodgy than a three pound note. When you click on the tags on the bottom right you get links to reams of anti-Catholic stuff.
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Post by copper on Sept 12, 2022 18:29:30 GMT
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 12, 2022 18:40:02 GMT
From a Catholic viewpoint it is just as dubious - it tries to start up with:- Bible holidays are for Bible believers and to establish that certain groups of Christians are not 'Bible believers.' When you search the word Catholic for articles on this site you get this:- landofhoneyblog.blogspot.com/search?q=catholic and that article contains the following text:- "We (my wife and I) started observing Shabbat because we did some research and found out that the Catholic church changed the day and meaning of observance." "We realized it was the Biblical day and God commanded it." "My mom had been convicted off and on almost her whole life.... She eventually just put her foot down and said she was going to keep it. My sister and I thought it was an okay idea at the time too, but now we would never go back!" "I could read it in the Bible in black and white that it was for me to do if I was grafted into the Vine. It had never been removed. And why would we only keep nine out of ten commands?"
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Post by theguvnor on Sept 12, 2022 18:42:26 GMT
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Post by copper on Sept 14, 2022 15:06:12 GMT
That makes more sense now.
I think what I believed (along with a lot of other people) is that because Constantine made a law for Sunday being a rest day, it was a papal decision. A lot of people believe Constantine was the head of the Church in that time (he was not).
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Post by po18guy on Sept 16, 2022 10:05:52 GMT
The Mosaic Law was, among other things, punitive. It was imposed as the Hebrews as external discipline since they had embraced every evil under the sun. It was and is a burden. See how difficult it is for observant Jews at www.jewishworldreview.com for one example. 613 laws, including how much weight one can lift on the Sabbath, how far one can walk on the Sabbath, etc. However, since the destruction of the second Temple, there has been no altar upon which to offer sacrifice. What a conundrum for a devout Jew! It was a yoke placed upon the Hebrews for their disobediance. Contrast this with our Lord's invitation: "Take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy and my burden light" ( Matthew 11:20) - Jews at the time knew exactly what He spoke of, as they bore the Mosaic yoke they had earned. See Isaiah 9:4, 10:27 and 14:25. And, recall that Jesus told the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well ( John 4) that the day was coming when the faithful would worship neither on the Samaritan's mountain, nor in Jerusalem, but rather in spirit and in truth. Note also that there is no geographical location of "in spirit and in truth" as had been the case with both the mountain and Jerusalem. No GPS coordinates. This interaction is filled with meaning. As to the Sabbath, it is what it was - and related is that we have the Vigil Mass after sundown, when Sunday has begun in the Jewish world. Saint Paul teaches us to: "let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath." ( Colossians 2:16). There is much freedom and much definition contained in that. The Sabbath is not a day of worship. It is the day of rest. Rather, Catholics both rest and worship on the Lord's Day as described by both Saint Paul and Saint John - the first day of the week, or Sunday. As to Who shifted the focus, it was the Lord. He rose from the dead - the greatest act of hope in human history - on Sunday. The Pentecost (birth of the Church) came on Sunday. John received his Revelation on Sunday. In answer, it was the Lord Who moved, not the Sabbath, but the focus of the New Covenant to the Lord's Day - Sunday. As to food and drink, Saint Paul addressed that generally in Colossians, but it was Saint Peter on the rooftop in Joppa who had the Abraham-like vision that three men were approaching and looking for him. It was then that Saint Peter received the vision proclaiming all foods clean. Saint Paul much later confirmed that in his letter to the Colossians. So, those with questions are honest, while those who accuse the Church are, in essence, ignorant of the scriptures.
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