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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 21, 2022 3:15:10 GMT
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Post by iagosan on Oct 21, 2022 6:16:56 GMT
Two very good articles that are difficult to disagree with. Thanks.
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Post by ralfy on Oct 22, 2022 2:43:06 GMT
Concerning the first article, if Pope Benedict XVI is correct in stating that the OF is based on ancient liturgies and practices, then the whole Church has been composed of "Novus Ordo men" from the beginning.
Second, given that same point, the argument that the EF is "the most authentic expression" also applies to the OF as it uses liturgies and practices that precede the same and have been part of the Church from the beginning.
If there is anything new, it is greater exposure to the Bible, which involved a call that started only recently, i.e., the nineteenth century. The irony is that Catholics had to learn that from their Protestant brethren.
Latin is a sacred liturgical language; it's just that it's not "the" sacred liturgical language. About that, one can debate on choices like Latin, common Greek, Aramaic, or ancient Hebrew.
About restoration of various practices, the reasons why they were removed are explained in papers like "The Missa Normativa of 1967". It's unfortunate that the Church has not been giving sufficient information for these changes, and that those who ask have to find them and figure out why they were made.
Given that, the TC and the *Responsa* are logical: people who attend Mass and read Scriptures have to understand the language used. If they don't and know only Latin, then they should use the EF and read Scriptures in Latin. The same applies to those who speak only Thai.
Finally, it makes no sense that all these are part of "Progressive Catholicism." If any, they are part of common sense.
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Post by ralfy on Oct 22, 2022 2:47:52 GMT
The same problem appears for the second article: the TC and *Responsa* is based on common sense and logic. You should follow what you're familiar with if you can't learn to do otherwise. Put simply, if you grew up speaking Latin and can't learn any other language, then you should use the OF originally written in Latin and the *Nova Vulgata*. If, for some reason, you grew up celebrating the EF and for some reason can't learn the OF, then you should stick to the EF.
But you can't have everything: you still need to follow the new cycle of readings, even if you have to use Latin, and have to change some terms in the old EF following VII reforms. Hopefully, you're intelligent enough to accomplish even that.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 22, 2022 3:19:37 GMT
Two questions:
Where was the Holy Ghost all those centuries, when the Mass was in Latin (that situation far predates 1570), and the people didn't understand it? They generally didn't have hand missals, they certainly didn't before the printing press, and up until fairly recent times, many people couldn't even read.
Second, can people fulfill their Sunday obligation, and obtain the graces of the Mass, if they go to Mass in a language they can't understand? Can someone who doesn't speak English assist at an English Mass? Can an Anglo who can only get to a Spanish Mass that Sunday, and who doesn't speak Spanish, and only has access to a Spanish hand missal, do likewise with a Spanish Mass? I attended an Ethiopian Catholic Divine Liturgy one time (Basilica Shrine in DC), celebrated in Ge'ez, and heaven knows I don't speak Ge'ez. Yet I'm pretty sure I obtained graces at that liturgy.
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Post by ralfy on Oct 22, 2022 23:22:34 GMT
He was around but people struggled as they tried to understand the faith. These led to tragic occurrences like the Reformation and the point that even up to the twentieth century the clergy did not allow lay persons to read the Bible (even in translation) unsupervised.
Things changed with Vatican I, as the Church wanted people to stop struggling and start understanding. But given lack of resources this process will take a long time.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 22, 2022 23:47:06 GMT
He was around but people struggled as they tried to understand the faith. These led to tragic occurrences like the Reformation and the point that even up to the twentieth century the clergy did not allow lay persons to read the Bible (even in translation) unsupervised. Things changed with Vatican I, as the Church wanted people to stop struggling and start understanding. But given lack of resources this process will take a long time. Are you saying Vatican One, or Vatican Two? Vatican One got stopped in its tracks and never did get to finish its work. |
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Post by ralfy on Oct 23, 2022 2:25:23 GMT
Things changed with Vatican I, which even though was suspended addressed growing secularism. This was also part of the same concerns of Vatican II.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 23, 2022 3:39:08 GMT
Things changed with Vatican I, which even though was suspended addressed growing secularism. This was also part of the same concerns of Vatican II. I see what you mean. Perhaps Vatican One bears some looking into as well. It's kind of a "forgotten council". |
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