|
Post by Lost Sheep on Oct 21, 2022 14:31:30 GMT
Not sure if this belongs under Liturgy and Sacraments, or General Catholic Discussion or what, but here goes.
I have a dilemma.
I have a brother two years my junior. We are both cradle Catholics, we both went to Catholic School, we were both altar boys, etc.; the whole bit.
I my adult years, I began to try to learn more about the faith in depth and what we believe and why we believe it. My brother never did such a thing, but he continues to diligently attend mass every week, goes to confession periodically, and believes he is a "good Catholic."
About thirty years ago, he met a nice girl at his job; they started dating and eventually got married. She is not Catholic, though that in and of itself is not the problem. However this woman was previously married and divorced and my brother and she got married in a Civil ceremony in front of a judge. Now this whole arrangement is not "kosher" with Catholic teaching and, going By the Book, this is an adulterous marriage.
Concerned about his spiritual well-being, I once tactfully approached him about this and his response was "I think the Catholic Church has more important things to worry about than my marriage." I did not press the issue further.
Our parents both love his wife and are thankful in a way because my brother was always kind of shy and we thought he might never find someone to share his life with. They are both very happy together. Yet this continues to bother me.
Should I bring this up again (which would surely end up as a huge argument with me being the Bad Guy) or am I just being a nosey busybody and I should just keep my mouth shut, let him continue his life in blissful ignorance and leave his fate up to God?
Decisions, Decisions.
|
|
|
Post by theguvnor on Oct 21, 2022 15:00:52 GMT
This is your brother and his wife's business at this point. If he has indicated he wants you to stay out of it I would or you are likely to alienate a family member.
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Oct 21, 2022 15:26:10 GMT
As long as you have told him what the teaching of the Church is on marriage, and to be more specific, on invalid marriage being a form of adultery (or fornication, as the case might be, if both spouses have no previous marriages, but invalidly marry due to lack of form), then you've done all you can do. If he is omitting his invalid marriage from his confession, he is making sacrilegious confessions, as well as sacrilegious communions.
"But it could be a Josephite marriage, how can you assume they're sleeping in the same bed and having sex?". Please.
I've already put my son (age 15) on notice, if you attempt to marry invalidly, I won't be at the wedding, so don't set up such a situation, set up an "emotional slipdown" for yourself, and get all butt-hurt when I'm not there.
|
|
|
Post by StellaMaris on Oct 22, 2022 3:24:10 GMT
Not sure if this belongs under Liturgy and Sacraments, or General Catholic Discussion or what, but here goes. I have a dilemma. I have a brother two years my junior. We are both cradle Catholics, we both went to Catholic School, we were both altar boys, etc.; the whole bit. I my adult years, I began to try to learn more about the faith in depth and what we believe and why we believe it. My brother never did such a thing, but he continues to diligently attend mass every week, goes to confession periodically, and believes he is a "good Catholic." About thirty years ago, he met a nice girl at his job; they started dating and eventually got married. She is not Catholic, though that in and of itself is not the problem. However this woman was previously married and divorced and my brother and she got married in a Civil ceremony in front of a judge. Now this whole arrangement is not "kosher" with Catholic teaching and, going By the Book, this is an adulterous marriage. Concerned about his spiritual well-being, I once tactfully approached him about this and his response was "I think the Catholic Church has more important things to worry about than my marriage." I did not press the issue further. Our parents both love his wife and are thankful in a way because my brother was always kind of shy and we thought he might never find someone to share his life with. They are both very happy together. Yet this continues to bother me. Should I bring this up again (which would surely end up as a huge argument with me being the Bad Guy) or am I just being a nosey busybody and I should just keep my mouth shut, let him continue his life in blissful ignorance and leave his fate up to God? Decisions, Decisions. Definitely put his situation into the 'leave it up to God' basket. Be a witness to Christ by joy, kindness, non judgments, and who knows, he might be converted in some way.
|
|
|
Post by farronwolf on Oct 22, 2022 10:04:56 GMT
It is his business not yours. (I am assuming you are not also his priest as well as his brother) Has he examined all the situations in your life and told you what you need to change? My guess is no.
There are plenty of things in life that cause family members to distance themselves from each other. Purposely interjecting one's self into another family member's affairs repeatedly and causing division usually doesn't end well.
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Oct 22, 2022 12:05:47 GMT
As said above, you did your duty as a Catholic by reminding your brother of the Church teaching. Beyond that you need to butt out and just pray for him and his wife.
If this continues to bother you, talk to your own priest about ways you can cope.
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Oct 22, 2022 13:25:43 GMT
As long as you have told him what the teaching of the Church is on marriage, and to be more specific, on invalid marriage being a form of adultery (or fornication, as the case might be, if both spouses have no previous marriages, but invalidly marry due to lack of form), then you've done all you can do. If he is omitting his invalid marriage from his confession, he is making sacrilegious confessions, as well as sacrilegious communions. "But it could be a Josephite marriage, how can you assume they're sleeping in the same bed and having sex?". Please.I've already put my son (age 15) on notice, if you attempt to marry invalidly, I won't be at the wedding, so don't set up such a situation, set up an "emotional slipdown" for yourself, and get all butt-hurt when I'm not there. I'm posting this separately, rather than an "edited to add", because it's a distinct point. Even though I have done everything in my power, and continue to do so, to guide my son towards marriage considered valid by the Church, if he met a woman and sought to marry her, yet did not wish to do it in the Church, with grave, and I do mean grave, reservations, I could attend a merely civil wedding, with the idea in mind --- and made crystal-clear to him --- that it's really just another form of "shacking up", but it could one day be convalidated, and would encourage him to do so. This is, of course, assuming that the woman had no impediments (such as a prior marriage) that would make convalidation impossible --- "you really need to do this sooner or later". One problem with this, though, is if the woman did not want it to be convalidated, and once he "got religion" about it, he'd be faced with the dilemma of either leaving her (children might be involved by that time, complicating matters further), or continuing to live in a mortally sinful concubinage. ( Sanatio in radice is a tricky proposition.) Divorce courts don't care about things like that, and you can end up losing half (or more) of everything you have. Yet one more reason to put your children's inheritance in trust, as I have done. Our family has worked too hard for what we have --- my parents scrimped and saved so much for 67 years, and hardly a day goes by that I don't whisper to myself "thank you, Dad" for our homes owned in the clear and our assets, he busted his hump for us (and possibly shortened his life by working for many years among hazardous chemicals, he oversaw an EPA Superfund site) --- to see much of it taken away by a disaffected spouse.
|
|
|
Post by StellaMaris on Oct 22, 2022 22:47:24 GMT
Lost Sheep, where I live we are currently flood bound and I can't get to Mass today (Sunday in Australia) but I was just contemplating on todays Gospel from Luke and I thought it's a lesson to us all not to fall into a particular type of attitude when we come up against the sins of others. Not that I'm saying you are doing this, but that it is a temptation to all people to be wary of. Luke 18 9-14.
Jesus addressed this parable
to those who were convinced of their own righteousness
and despised everyone else.
"Two people went up to the temple area to pray;
one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself,
'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity --
greedy, dishonest, adulterous -- or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.'
But the tax collector stood off at a distance
and would not even raise his eyes to heaven
but beat his breast and prayed,
'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.'
I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former;
for whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Oct 22, 2022 23:32:32 GMT
Given that this is LostSheep's brother, and not sone neighbor/ acquaintance, the concern is likely motivated by some worry that Brother may actually go to hell and not out of some Pharasaical motive to be holier than thou. None of us want to see our loved ones go to Hell and it can be very hard to just drop a truth bomb once and then commit them to God's care and pray ceaselessly for them hoping they will amend their ways.
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Oct 22, 2022 23:45:16 GMT
Given that this is LostSheep's brother, and not sone neighbor/ acquaintance, the concern is likely motivated by some worry that Brother may actually go to hell and not out of some Pharasaical motive to be holier than thou. None of us want to see our loved ones go to Hell and it can be very hard to just drop a truth bomb once and then commit them to God's care and pray ceaselessly for them hoping they will amend their ways. I've had to drop a few "truth bombs" myself in my own family. I don't regret it, and I make no apologies for it. A "truth bomb" can be one of the most loving things you can ever do.
|
|
|
Post by StellaMaris on Oct 22, 2022 23:57:34 GMT
Given that this is LostSheep's brother, and not sone neighbor/ acquaintance, the concern is likely motivated by some worry that Brother may actually go to hell and not out of some Pharasaical motive to be holier than thou. None of us want to see our loved ones go to Hell and it can be very hard to just drop a truth bomb once and then commit them to God's care and pray ceaselessly for them hoping they will amend their ways. Attitude makes the difference is what the parable highlights. Something coming from humble charity can touch another's heart but coming from self righteous sense of superiority can do the very opposite.
|
|
|
Dilemma
Oct 23, 2022 1:58:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by tisbearself on Oct 23, 2022 1:58:26 GMT
Given that this is LostSheep's brother, and not sone neighbor/ acquaintance, the concern is likely motivated by some worry that Brother may actually go to hell and not out of some Pharasaical motive to be holier than thou. None of us want to see our loved ones go to Hell and it can be very hard to just drop a truth bomb once and then commit them to God's care and pray ceaselessly for them hoping they will amend their ways. Attitude makes the difference is what the parable highlights. Something coming from humble charity can touch another's heart but coming from self righteous sense of superiority can do the very opposite. Oftentimes humble charity doesn't help either when the person is convinced they are not doing anything that serious. I speak as a former habitual grave sinner who was convinced God didn't mind what I did and maybe even supported me in it. Neither of which was the case, I realize now. I'm pretty sure that the many prayers offered by my mother helped much more than any lecture she ever gave me despite her giving it purely out of love and concern.
|
|
|
Post by Lost Sheep on Oct 25, 2022 12:38:35 GMT
Given that this is LostSheep's brother, and not sone neighbor/ acquaintance, the concern is likely motivated by some worry that Brother may actually go to hell and not out of some Pharasaical motive to be holier than thou. Thank you; that is correct. I'd be the last person to claim that I was holier or less sinful than anyone else. I try to go to confessions that have a Revolving Door. LOL! I am sincerely concerned about his salvation. A priest once told me (and this may or not be party-line doctrine) that if someone is not aware that they are committing a sin or maybe they do not fully understand the seriousness of their action, then perhaps they may still be saved. I guess I should just hope for the best.
|
|