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Post by ralfy on Nov 2, 2022 0:00:31 GMT
The reason why French, Spanish, Italian, and other languages emerged is because Latin usage fell apart. Before that, many knew some Latin, so the Vulgate was made, which I think is a translation of a Greek translation of the OT, with reference to parts of the OT written in Hebrew, and the NT is Greek. After that, across hundreds of years parts of the Bible were translated into vernacular languages by different people and groups. At the same time, more manuscripts of the Bible were discovered. From there, complete translations of the Bible emerged in different languages. That did not matter for the Church because it didn't encourage lay persons to read the Bible. It took several more centuries before the Church started encouraging people to read the Bible and to have more accurate translations based on scholarship and science. That eventually involved looking at multiple sources and then doing cross comparisons instead of just relying on the Vulgate. Meanwhile, Latin remained the base for Church documents, likely because clergy speak different languages but have to learn Latin in school. The problem is that most lay persons were not required to learn Latin, and more schools were not teaching it due to costs and increasing specialization as part of industrialization. That's why during the same hundreds of years from the time full translations of the Bible in modern vernacular languages appeared to the time Roman Missals were published with translations on the margin, the Mass in the vernacular was celebrated in different parts of the world: catholiccommonsense.freeforums.net/thread/1866/forbidden-translations-brief-history
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Post by ralfy on Nov 2, 2022 0:39:25 GMT
I forgot to mention the ff:
I think the RSV is based on the KJV, which in turn was based on not just the Vulgate but also the Greek NT and the authoritative Hebrew Bible, or the Masoretic Text (MT) which was made hundreds of years after the Greek translation of the OT.
The RSV was made because more people had difficulty understanding archaic English. The Catholics wanted the other books of the Bible included, so a Catholic edition came out. This was used in various regions of the world.
Meanwhile, U.S. citizens had difficulty understanding idiomatic expressions used in England and elsewhere, among others, so the New American Bible was made for them. That, in turn, stemmed from a translation based on the Vulgate, which in turn could not refer to the MT because it was made hundreds of years earlier.
I think scholars discovered that the MT was significantly accurate, so they consulted that as well for translation.
Both the RSV and the NAB were published before new manuscript discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls became widely available, and they helped in plugging in holes and clarifying certain terms in the OT, so updated translations like the NRSV and the NABRE came out.
But the updates were not fully completed, and there were some more ideas from scholarship coming in, so a new version, the NRSVue, came out. In the same light, a new version of NABRE will appear by 2025, this time one that can be used not only for personal study but also for catechism and liturgy.
Finally, that last point is notable. I think the translators are funded independently, and at the same time can only earn enough if licenses for their translations are obtained by Bible publishers. Publishers, in turn, are studying the markets, by looking at buyers' reading levels and views concerning gender neutrality, etc. I'm guessing that the Church is doing the same.
This explains why the liturgy uses older translations of the Bible: the Church does not accept certain translations because they are used in prayer and Catholics aren't familiar with them (e.g., "Greetings, favored one" instead of "Hail, Mary").
This also implies that the new version of NABRE is important, because the translators will have to do that by working with the U.S. Bishops and the Vatican.
With that, one can see that the Church has slowly been realizing that the language used in liturgy, Scriptures, etc., is selected based on what the faithful can understand, and what the faithful can understand is connected to various societal factors, including reading level.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 2, 2022 0:58:30 GMT
The reason why French, Spanish, Italian, and other languages emerged is because Latin usage fell apart. Before that, many knew some Latin, so the Vulgate was made, which I think is a translation of a Greek translation of the OT, with reference to parts of the OT written in Hebrew, and the NT is Greek. After that, across hundreds of years parts of the Bible were translated into vernacular languages by different people and groups. At the same time, more manuscripts of the Bible were discovered. From there, complete translations of the Bible emerged in different languages. That did not matter for the Church because it didn't encourage lay persons to read the Bible. It took several more centuries before the Church started encouraging people to read the Bible and to have more accurate translations based on scholarship and science. That eventually involved looking at multiple sources and then doing cross comparisons instead of just relying on the Vulgate. Meanwhile, Latin remained the base for Church documents, likely because clergy speak different languages but have to learn Latin in school. The problem is that most lay persons were not required to learn Latin, and more schools were not teaching it due to costs and increasing specialization as part of industrialization. That's why during the same hundreds of years from the time full translations of the Bible in modern vernacular languages appeared to the time Roman Missals were published with translations on the margin, the Mass in the vernacular was celebrated in different parts of the world: catholiccommonsense.freeforums.net/thread/1866/forbidden-translations-brief-historyYou say "Latin usage fell apart". We may have the same thing in mind, but my understanding is that Latin morphed into those various languages due to organic development over time, and differences in regional usage that grew greater as time went by. Also, there were no mass media or books printed in large quantities that would have served to standardize usage. Languages such as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, or even French, differ far less from classical or ecclesiastical Latin, than English, Dutch, and German differ from the proto-Germanic languages spoken during the same time frame. And modern vernacular Greek differs greatly from classical or koine Greek, though I can't claim any expertise in this, as I only know a smattering of words in Greek, whereas I have a basic working knowledge of French, Spanish, German, and liturgical Latin.
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Post by StellaMaris on Nov 2, 2022 3:09:00 GMT
Those are all universities where Latin is offered as an optional subject. They aren't schools where Latin was considered necessary as requirements for some strains of higher education. Latin isn't a requirement for those anymore. Medicine, law, science, theology. It served Europeans and their colonies but it is a big diverse world out there and Latin no longer has relevance in any dominant way.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 2, 2022 15:39:05 GMT
The Catholic high schools in this area still teach Latin and the kids are actually excited about learning it. I got this info from a friend (non-trad) whose daughter was choosing a high school this year. I was pleasantly surprised.
In my day I was encouraged to learn it not for church purposes, but because it is helpful if you go on to study medicine, law, or even other European languages. Having gone on to study both law and other languages, I can attest that a knowledge of Latin was indeed helpful. There was also a school of thought that Latin knowledge helps people build their English vocabulary and do better on standardized college entrance exams. It likely does help with vocabulary, not sure about the exams.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 2, 2022 16:08:13 GMT
It helps understand the roots of numerous languages - that's certainly true - as would a study of Greek. It was still on the syllabus in Ireland long after it was removed in England in state schools for the most part. I can recall using my cousin Patrick Mary's Latin dictionaries he gave me to translate things in books, well roughly translate anyway.
For a supposedly 'dead' language it gets some exciting and heated conversations going.
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Post by StellaMaris on Nov 2, 2022 18:26:18 GMT
The Catholic high schools in this area still teach Latin and the kids are actually excited about learning it. I got this info from a friend (non-trad) whose daughter was choosing a high school this year. I was pleasantly surprised. In my day I was encouraged to learn it not for church purposes, but because it is helpful if you go on to study medicine, law, or even other European languages. Having gone on to study both law and other languages, I can attest that a knowledge of Latin was indeed helpful. There was also a school of thought that Latin knowledge helps people build their English vocabulary and do better on standardized college entrance exams. It likely does help with vocabulary, not sure about the exams. The comment I first responded to was that Latin developed in these spheres 'organically'. The fact is that just as organically it has faded in dominance because other countries, with other languages and other language roots are involved in the universal fields once dominated by European culture. It's irrelevant to my point that your friends are excited to learn Latin in their tiny corner of the globe.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 2, 2022 22:05:05 GMT
It helps understand the roots of numerous languages - that's certainly true - as would a study of Greek. It was still on the syllabus in Ireland long after it was removed in England in state schools for the most part. I can recall using my cousin Patrick Mary's Latin dictionaries he gave me to translate things in books, well roughly translate anyway. For a supposedly 'dead' language it gets some exciting and heated conversations going. Greek has been much less common in US at high school level for many decades. Although nowadays there are likely some private schools that offer it. People used to argue a bit over Latin even back when I was a teen, because of its being a "dead language." Many people objected to the idea of spending time learning a dead language when one could instead learn a current language (usually Spanish was the one suggested) and use it to communicate better with Spanish speaking people in US or on the border, and thus build neighborly bridges or go into social justice work. At my high school you could choose only one language, either Spanish, French, or Latin, and had to take it for four years. If not pushed by my parents to take Latin I likely would have chosen French. As it turned out I took several years of French some years later at community college so I ended up with a working knowledge of both languages anyway.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 2, 2022 23:14:01 GMT
It might be a dead language but as it underpins so many Europeans languages I think it is well worth knowing. TEFL teachers actually recommend teachers learn a least a bit of Latin if they don't already know it. I have a qualification as a TEFL teacher and the two teachers who took us through the course recommended it was worth knowing at least some basic Latin terms and phrases due to them popping up in so many places. And they do - here's one I've stuck in an essay three hours ago - caput mortuum - this is how the writer implies that the people of a future civilization have contempt for the race of beings they've created as it is a term that means more or less 'dross' or leftovers of no worth.
These teachers were essentially relating what our English teachers told us at school, have a basic understanding of common Latin phrases as they are used in so much literature and so often in writing.
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Post by ralfy on Nov 2, 2022 23:21:36 GMT
The reason why French, Spanish, Italian, and other languages emerged is because Latin usage fell apart. Before that, many knew some Latin, so the Vulgate was made, which I think is a translation of a Greek translation of the OT, with reference to parts of the OT written in Hebrew, and the NT is Greek. After that, across hundreds of years parts of the Bible were translated into vernacular languages by different people and groups. At the same time, more manuscripts of the Bible were discovered. From there, complete translations of the Bible emerged in different languages. That did not matter for the Church because it didn't encourage lay persons to read the Bible. It took several more centuries before the Church started encouraging people to read the Bible and to have more accurate translations based on scholarship and science. That eventually involved looking at multiple sources and then doing cross comparisons instead of just relying on the Vulgate. Meanwhile, Latin remained the base for Church documents, likely because clergy speak different languages but have to learn Latin in school. The problem is that most lay persons were not required to learn Latin, and more schools were not teaching it due to costs and increasing specialization as part of industrialization. That's why during the same hundreds of years from the time full translations of the Bible in modern vernacular languages appeared to the time Roman Missals were published with translations on the margin, the Mass in the vernacular was celebrated in different parts of the world: catholiccommonsense.freeforums.net/thread/1866/forbidden-translations-brief-historyYou say "Latin usage fell apart". We may have the same thing in mind, but my understanding is that Latin morphed into those various languages due to organic development over time, and differences in regional usage that grew greater as time went by. Also, there were no mass media or books printed in large quantities that would have served to standardize usage. Languages such as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, or even French, differ far less from classical or ecclesiastical Latin, than English, Dutch, and German differ from the proto-Germanic languages spoken during the same time frame. And modern vernacular Greek differs greatly from classical or koine Greek, though I can't claim any expertise in this, as I only know a smattering of words in Greek, whereas I have a basic working knowledge of French, Spanish, German, and liturgical Latin. That's what I mean by "fell apart." More spoke Romance languages and less Latin. It took a long time for the Church to understand the effects of this phenomenon.
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Post by ralfy on Nov 2, 2022 23:25:24 GMT
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 3, 2022 1:54:06 GMT
I think a case can be made, that some study of Latin would help students expand their vocabularies in English. It certainly couldn't hurt.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 3, 2022 1:57:39 GMT
I think a case can be made, that some study of Latin would help students expand their vocabularies in English. It certainly couldn't hurt. Latin study persisted for centuries because it was considered helpful to scholarship in other areas, as I already mentioned. The average school in USA is barely able to teach kids basic skills. Schools that are focusing more on quality education are offering Latin for the reasons I mentioned.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 3, 2022 2:26:39 GMT
I think a case can be made, that some study of Latin would help students expand their vocabularies in English. It certainly couldn't hurt. Latin study persisted for centuries because it was considered helpful to scholarship in other areas, as I already mentioned. The average school in USA is barely able to teach kids basic skills. Schools that are focusing more on quality education are offering Latin for the reasons I mentioned. Due to the byzantine requirements our state imposes upon homeschoolers, we will "max out" our foreign language requirement with two years of French, that on top of a semester of ASL that my son insisted on studying, but in Grade 11 I am going to squeeze in a one-semester course I am calling "Just Enough Latin", concentrating upon Latin phrases used in English, as well as some very basic grammar and study of the main parts of the Traditional Latin Mass, including the St Michael prayer. My son has a picture of St Michael the Archangel in his bedroom. It's this one, courtesy of TFP, a group for which I only carry a very limited amount of water, I find the whole Plinio thing kind of cultish. I do like their promotion of Fatima as well as their pro-life work, but that's about it.
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Post by ralfy on Nov 4, 2022 2:37:19 GMT
I think a case can be made, that some study of Latin would help students expand their vocabularies in English. It certainly couldn't hurt. You'll need additional teachers for that, and that will increase costs.
That concern is more than acute for the Church which can barely provide enough schools for Catholics.
Meanwhile, many did well with the language even without learning Latin. Consider examples given in books like Hirsch's Cultural Literacy.
Finally, what about Catholics who don't speak English? This idea is impractical.
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