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Post by tisbearself on Nov 4, 2022 3:22:33 GMT
I think a case can be made, that some study of Latin would help students expand their vocabularies in English. It certainly couldn't hurt. You'll need additional teachers for that, and that will increase costs.
That concern is more than acute for the Church which can barely provide enough schools for Catholics.
Meanwhile, many did well with the language even without learning Latin. Consider examples given in books like Hirsch's Cultural Literacy.
Finally, what about Catholics who don't speak English? This idea is impractical.
I have no idea why you think it’s such a big deal for a well-equipped private or even public high school in USA to hire a Latin teacher. One of my acquaintances from a prayer group makes a living for some years now teaching Latin at a local public, non-Catholic high school. It is located in a well-off suburb and does not have problems with hiring or paying teachers. Obviously a public high school in some impoverished area probably won’t offer Latin, but there will likely be community colleges in those areas that would offer it to those who advance enough to take subjects beyond just the basic. And this is all referring to the US. I am aware there are channels to also study Latin in UK as I took a course with a teacher from there. Other countries, I have no idea and don’t purport to speak for them. I’m also not sure where you get the idea the church can’t provide schools for Catholics in the US. We actually have had an over abundance of such schools and some are closing due to lack of enrollment. The ones that remain are competing for best and brightest students which is one reason why they offer subjects like Latin and even sometimes Greek as well as a host of other things that attract the best students - who, unless they are getting need-based scholarships, generally pay a pretty penny to attend such schools.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 4, 2022 3:39:15 GMT
I think a case can be made, that some study of Latin would help students expand their vocabularies in English. It certainly couldn't hurt. You'll need additional teachers for that, and that will increase costs.
That concern is more than acute for the Church which can barely provide enough schools for Catholics.
Meanwhile, many did well with the language even without learning Latin. Consider examples given in books like Hirsch's Cultural Literacy.
Finally, what about Catholics who don't speak English? This idea is impractical.
A lot of teachers are out of work. Certainly some of them either know Latin, or could learn it. It wouldn't be that much of a leap for French or Spanish teachers. The problems that Catholic schools face come from, among other factors, - (a) declining enrollment due to falling birth rates (much of this fueled by acceptance of contraception)
- (b) people falling away from the Church in general
- (c) declining vocations, tied in large part to (a) and even to (b), vocations which kept Catholic schools supplied with well-educated teachers who worked for minimal cost, in the case of nuns and sisters, just room, board, and stipend
- (d) which leads to a need to hire lay teachers at competitive salaries
- (e) there no longer being an expectation that Catholics will send their children to Catholic schools
- (f) and therefore having to attract non-Catholics, who pay full tuition, to keep the schools afloat
- (g) and on top of that, having to provide something of value, viz. an education superior to that of public schools, to get non-Catholics to consider Catholic education in the first place. This stands in contrast to the days when it was a case of "if you're Catholic, you go to the Catholic school if there is one, end of discussion" (see (e) above).
Talk about a "house of cards".
I don't deny that students can excel in linguistics without learning Latin. But it is certainly very helpful.
And as far as those who don't speak English, Latin helps with other languages as well, obviously the Romance languages, and to a lesser extent the Germanic and even Slavic languages. My wife took Latin in college in Poland as part of her philology requirements, and that was during the Soviet era (!). And people the world over learn English as a second language, so if Latin can help with that, so much the better.
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Post by ralfy on Nov 5, 2022 2:26:35 GMT
You'll need additional teachers for that, and that will increase costs.
That concern is more than acute for the Church which can barely provide enough schools for Catholics.
Meanwhile, many did well with the language even without learning Latin. Consider examples given in books like Hirsch's Cultural Literacy.
Finally, what about Catholics who don't speak English? This idea is impractical.
A lot of teachers are out of work. Certainly some of them either know Latin, or could learn it. It wouldn't be that much of a leap for French or Spanish teachers. The problems that Catholic schools face come from, among other factors, - (a) declining enrollment due to falling birth rates (much of this fueled by acceptance of contraception)
- (b) people falling away from the Church in general
- (c) declining vocations, tied in large part to (a) and even to (b), vocations which kept Catholic schools supplied with well-educated teachers who worked for minimal cost, in the case of nuns and sisters, just room, board, and stipend
- (d) which leads to a need to hire lay teachers at competitive salaries
- (e) there no longer being an expectation that Catholics will send their children to Catholic schools
- (f) and therefore having to attract non-Catholics, who pay full tuition, to keep the schools afloat
- (g) and on top of that, having to provide something of value, viz. an education superior to that of public schools, to get non-Catholics to consider Catholic education in the first place. This stands in contrast to the days when it was a case of "if you're Catholic, you go to the Catholic school if there is one, end of discussion" (see (e) above).
Talk about a "house of cards".
I don't deny that students can excel in linguistics without learning Latin. But it is certainly very helpful.
And as far as those who don't speak English, Latin helps with other languages as well, obviously the Romance languages, and to a lesser extent the Germanic and even Slavic languages. My wife took Latin in college in Poland as part of her philology requirements, and that was during the Soviet era (!). And people the world over learn English as a second language, so if Latin can help with that, so much the better.
I don't think you're getting my point. Worldwide, the Church lacks funds to even provide enough schools, not to mention Churches, Bibles, personnel, etc. In short, they can barely provide funds needed to teach comm arts in the vernacular and even the basics, never mind Latin or even foreign languages. Given that, such advice is impractical.
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Post by ralfy on Nov 5, 2022 2:30:16 GMT
You'll need additional teachers for that, and that will increase costs.
That concern is more than acute for the Church which can barely provide enough schools for Catholics.
Meanwhile, many did well with the language even without learning Latin. Consider examples given in books like Hirsch's Cultural Literacy.
Finally, what about Catholics who don't speak English? This idea is impractical.
I have no idea why you think it’s such a big deal for a well-equipped private or even public high school in USA to hire a Latin teacher. One of my acquaintances from a prayer group makes a living for some years now teaching Latin at a local public, non-Catholic high school. It is located in a well-off suburb and does not have problems with hiring or paying teachers. Obviously a public high school in some impoverished area probably won’t offer Latin, but there will likely be community colleges in those areas that would offer it to those who advance enough to take subjects beyond just the basic. And this is all referring to the US. I am aware there are channels to also study Latin in UK as I took a course with a teacher from there. Other countries, I have no idea and don’t purport to speak for them. I’m also not sure where you get the idea the church can’t provide schools for Catholics in the US. We actually have had an over abundance of such schools and some are closing due to lack of enrollment. The ones that remain are competing for best and brightest students which is one reason why they offer subjects like Latin and even sometimes Greek as well as a host of other things that attract the best students - who, unless they are getting need-based scholarships, generally pay a pretty penny to attend such schools. The U.S. or even the UK do not represent the economic conditions faced by the Church. Large numbers of Catholics are found in poor countries in South America, Asia, and now Africa.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 5, 2022 2:49:51 GMT
A lot of teachers are out of work. Certainly some of them either know Latin, or could learn it. It wouldn't be that much of a leap for French or Spanish teachers. The problems that Catholic schools face come from, among other factors, - (a) declining enrollment due to falling birth rates (much of this fueled by acceptance of contraception)
- (b) people falling away from the Church in general
- (c) declining vocations, tied in large part to (a) and even to (b), vocations which kept Catholic schools supplied with well-educated teachers who worked for minimal cost, in the case of nuns and sisters, just room, board, and stipend
- (d) which leads to a need to hire lay teachers at competitive salaries
- (e) there no longer being an expectation that Catholics will send their children to Catholic schools
- (f) and therefore having to attract non-Catholics, who pay full tuition, to keep the schools afloat
- (g) and on top of that, having to provide something of value, viz. an education superior to that of public schools, to get non-Catholics to consider Catholic education in the first place. This stands in contrast to the days when it was a case of "if you're Catholic, you go to the Catholic school if there is one, end of discussion" (see (e) above).
Talk about a "house of cards".
I don't deny that students can excel in linguistics without learning Latin. But it is certainly very helpful.
And as far as those who don't speak English, Latin helps with other languages as well, obviously the Romance languages, and to a lesser extent the Germanic and even Slavic languages. My wife took Latin in college in Poland as part of her philology requirements, and that was during the Soviet era (!). And people the world over learn English as a second language, so if Latin can help with that, so much the better.
I don't think you're getting my point. Worldwide, the Church lacks funds to even provide enough schools, not to mention Churches, Bibles, personnel, etc. In short, they can barely provide funds needed to teach comm arts in the vernacular and even the basics, never mind Latin or even foreign languages. Given that, such advice is impractical.
I do indeed see what you are saying. I will concede, where educational resources are scarce, as you describe, Latin might be something that could be bypassed out of sheer necessity. Sometimes you have to do the best with what you have. In my own Catholic high school in the 1970s, we ran on about as slender a budget as a school possibly could, and the foreign language offered was whatever language the one teacher who had foreign language proficiency knew. Our French teacher left and was replaced by a teacher who knew Spanish, so that was the extent of foreign-language options. If you wanted to take a modern language, it was either Spanish or nothing. (Latin and Greek were taught in tutorial fashion for those few students who were truly motivated to take it, and the priest who knew both of these held private classes independent of the school schedule.) Very often, we took whatever teachers we could get --- lay teachers worked for not much over minimum wage, as that's all the school could afford to pay. You took whatever classes the teacher knew how to teach, and that was that. We were far from being an "elite" school, and you got out of it what you put into it.
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Post by ralfy on Nov 5, 2022 3:49:31 GMT
I don't think you're getting my point. Worldwide, the Church lacks funds to even provide enough schools, not to mention Churches, Bibles, personnel, etc. In short, they can barely provide funds needed to teach comm arts in the vernacular and even the basics, never mind Latin or even foreign languages. Given that, such advice is impractical.
I do indeed see what you are saying. I will concede, where educational resources are scarce, as you describe, Latin might be something that could be bypassed out of sheer necessity. Sometimes you have to do the best with what you have. In my own Catholic high school in the 1970s, we ran on about as slender a budget as a school possibly could, and the foreign language offered was whatever language the one teacher who had foreign language proficiency knew. Our French teacher left and was replaced by a teacher who knew Spanish, so that was the extent of foreign-language options. If you wanted to take a modern language, it was either Spanish or nothing. (Latin and Greek were taught in tutorial fashion for those few students who were truly motivated to take it, and the priest who knew both of these held private classes independent of the school schedule.) Very often, we took whatever teachers we could get --- lay teachers worked for not much over minimum wage, as that's all the school could afford to pay. You took whatever classes the teacher knew how to teach, and that was that. We were far from being an "elite" school, and you got out of it what you put into it.
FWIW, I once asked about tuition in a top Catholic school in Manila that offers not only Spanish but also some Latin (I think only three schools in the country offer them), and it's around US$2,800 a year (the other two schools charge something like $8,500). In the states, it's probably $10,000.
The average wage in the Philippines is around $281 a month (after tax). In the states, it's more than $4,000.
In short, even though the cost of living in the states is more than twice as high as PH and rent up to four times more, the average income is more than fourteen times greater.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 5, 2022 3:57:10 GMT
I do indeed see what you are saying. I will concede, where educational resources are scarce, as you describe, Latin might be something that could be bypassed out of sheer necessity. Sometimes you have to do the best with what you have. In my own Catholic high school in the 1970s, we ran on about as slender a budget as a school possibly could, and the foreign language offered was whatever language the one teacher who had foreign language proficiency knew. Our French teacher left and was replaced by a teacher who knew Spanish, so that was the extent of foreign-language options. If you wanted to take a modern language, it was either Spanish or nothing. (Latin and Greek were taught in tutorial fashion for those few students who were truly motivated to take it, and the priest who knew both of these held private classes independent of the school schedule.) Very often, we took whatever teachers we could get --- lay teachers worked for not much over minimum wage, as that's all the school could afford to pay. You took whatever classes the teacher knew how to teach, and that was that. We were far from being an "elite" school, and you got out of it what you put into it.
FWIW, I once asked about tuition in a top Catholic school in Manila that offers not only Spanish but also some Latin (I think only three schools in the country offer them), and it's around US$2,800 a year (the other two schools charge something like $8,500). In the states, it's probably $10,000.
The average wage in the Philippines is around $281 a month (after tax). In the states, it's more than $4,000.
In short, even though the cost of living in the states is more than twice as high as PH and rent up to four times more, the average income is more than fourteen times greater.
Pupils at our school attended tuition-free as long as their parents were members of the parish. In theory, a family could have had ten children, given a dollar a week, and could send them all there for free. Non-Catholics were charged a nominal tuition of $300 per year, keep in mind that this was the 1970s.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 5, 2022 10:59:42 GMT
I have no idea why you think it’s such a big deal for a well-equipped private or even public high school in USA to hire a Latin teacher. One of my acquaintances from a prayer group makes a living for some years now teaching Latin at a local public, non-Catholic high school. It is located in a well-off suburb and does not have problems with hiring or paying teachers. Obviously a public high school in some impoverished area probably won’t offer Latin, but there will likely be community colleges in those areas that would offer it to those who advance enough to take subjects beyond just the basic. And this is all referring to the US. I am aware there are channels to also study Latin in UK as I took a course with a teacher from there. Other countries, I have no idea and don’t purport to speak for them. I’m also not sure where you get the idea the church can’t provide schools for Catholics in the US. We actually have had an over abundance of such schools and some are closing due to lack of enrollment. The ones that remain are competing for best and brightest students which is one reason why they offer subjects like Latin and even sometimes Greek as well as a host of other things that attract the best students - who, unless they are getting need-based scholarships, generally pay a pretty penny to attend such schools. The U.S. or even the UK do not represent the economic conditions faced by the Church. Large numbers of Catholics are found in poor countries in South America, Asia, and now Africa.
Well, this is my thread that I started and it’s clearly not about Africa and Asia. I’ll be blocking you now as your responses on many threads seem to be irrelevant, poorly informed, and taking discussions in odd directions, to the point where I don’t find most of your contributions helpful or productive or even interesting to be honest. Toodles.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 5, 2022 12:31:23 GMT
To be honest the thread doesn't stipulate it is about any particular part of the world or restricted only to a conversation about that area. You ran into this issue with me the other day, I'd say if we want to make our points only with reference to the area of the world we come from or an area such as Western Europe or the US it might be good for us to make that plain in posts with something like a line such as, 'these are the local conditions I am familiar with or 'I am confining my remarks to (insert particular area/region/topic). Otherwise, it seems reasonable for Ralfy to note the USA and UK are comparatively prosperous regions in his responses. People (me included) tend to use the conditions we grew up with and are most familiar as our go to for comparisons, nothing wrong with that, but sometimes we forgot they are not the only paradigm things can be measured against.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 5, 2022 16:52:06 GMT
It's a free forum as of now, Ralfy and you can say whatever you want, but Ralfy consistently makes bizarre, unsupportable points and tries to justify them by any means possible. I'm tired of dealing with it and since there is no moderation here I'm just gonna say what I think. I'm done dealing with Ralfy.
You and I have occasionally disagreed vehemently but you usually have at least some knowledge of what you are posting about. You also don't make ill-informed posts about Catholic schools and then when called on it, say "oh I meant in Africa".
There are people with whom it's simply a waste of time to discuss with IMHO. YMMV and of course my not wanting to respond has never stopped anyone from posting here if they wish to continue. Ralfy is free to post 25 more times and I am free to ignore it.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 5, 2022 17:30:48 GMT
It's a free forum as of now, Ralfy and you can say whatever you want, but Ralfy consistently makes bizarre, unsupportable points and tries to justify them by any means possible. I'm tired of dealing with it and since there is no moderation here I'm just gonna say what I think. I'm done dealing with Ralfy. You and I have occasionally disagreed vehemently but you usually have at least some knowledge of what you are posting about. You also don't make ill-informed posts about Catholic schools and then when called on it, say "oh I meant in Africa". There are people with whom it's simply a waste of time to discuss with IMHO. YMMV and of course my not wanting to respond has never stopped anyone from posting here if they wish to continue. Ralfy is free to post 25 more times and I am free to ignore it. I'm good with Ralfy. I find him to be an example of how to disagree without being disagreeable, and I find him always to be courteous and never descending into personal attacks or condemnations. In this respect, he's a model for all of us to follow. If he chooses to make a point, even a highly original one, and can back it up, I'm good with that too. And as for opinions, as the saying goes, everybody has one.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 5, 2022 20:30:00 GMT
It's a free forum as of now, Ralfy and you can say whatever you want, but Ralfy consistently makes bizarre, unsupportable points and tries to justify them by any means possible. I'm tired of dealing with it and since there is no moderation here I'm just gonna say what I think. I'm done dealing with Ralfy. You and I have occasionally disagreed vehemently but you usually have at least some knowledge of what you are posting about. You also don't make ill-informed posts about Catholic schools and then when called on it, say "oh I meant in Africa". There are people with whom it's simply a waste of time to discuss with IMHO. YMMV and of course my not wanting to respond has never stopped anyone from posting here if they wish to continue. Ralfy is free to post 25 more times and I am free to ignore it. I'm good with Ralfy. I find him to be an example of how to disagree without being disagreeable, and I find him always to be courteous and never descending into personal attacks or condemnations. In this respect, he's a model for all of us to follow. If he chooses to make a point, even a highly original one, and can back it up, I'm good with that too. And as for opinions, as the saying goes, everybody has one. And again, that's fine; we all have different opinions, as you say, and what bothers one person may be perfectly fine to someone else, I deal with this all day long elsewhere. I'm not running a "let's all band together and dump on so-and-so" crusade here.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 5, 2022 20:50:35 GMT
That's called politics - we could do political parties! No, maybe not on second thoughts. Even someone who is big a political junkie as me has enough politics to be going on with for now.
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Post by StellaMaris on Nov 5, 2022 21:05:07 GMT
Go, ralfy! Don't let them drive you away from here. I value your contributions a lot.
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 5, 2022 21:45:46 GMT
No-one is attempting to drive anyone away from anywhere. Give over.
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