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Post by tisbearself on Nov 7, 2022 11:19:13 GMT
A very useful and interesting website I discovered tracking the implementation of TC around the world. traditioniscustodes.info/ |
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 7, 2022 12:05:03 GMT
Belarus is on there - I find that er, interesting. There's a large Catholic populace there that rarely gets a mention. I notice btw the figures broadly support a view that suppression of TLM is a problem more in the US than any other part of the Catholic world. In Britain, one diocese had it completely suppressed and two had some suppressed as against 3 dioceses completely suppressing it in the US and 23 doing so partially. Any reason you could see why these figures would be slanted towards the US in this way? Poland is an odd-bod as showing 6 dioces having it partly suppressed. Any one got Polish roots here or have Polish family who might be able to offer insight into that.
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 7, 2022 12:59:38 GMT
It's not comprehensive as I'm pretty sure there are additional dioceses in Latin America that suporessed it and aren't on there. It was an easy matter for those places to suppress it as they did not have it in the first place.
Wrt "America" first of all the site is probably run by someone from US and second the TLM is more popular in the US than it is in a great many other countries (some countries like I said never had a TLM) so given the number of Catholics affected here it's a big deal. Even if it's only 1 percent of people in each diocese affected it adds up to a lot. Finally, this website is driven by the bishops' public statements and it's likely that not every bishop in the world has made one. Or if made, perhaps not submitted to the website by someone yet.
But in any event I mostly found this useful for looking at trends in US, Canada and Europe, as all three are places where you have both Catholics and TLMs.
Wrt suppression in USA, other than the handful of bishops like Cupich, Gregory and Parkes who are on a mission to stamp out the TLM, most of the places that instituted restrictions were restricting it to certain churches. For example, there used to be 5 in Diocese A and the bishop consolidated them to 2 locations. Prior to TC there was some thought that many parishes should have at least one TLM option if even a few parishioners wanted it, or that offering it at many parishes would cause others to fall in love with it more easily. Many bishops on the other hand were more in favor of seeing TLM consolidated in a couple locations often run by FSSP or similar in a dedicated church. This is understandable as it ensures that the TLMs are handled by priests/ churches well equipped for that and minimizes the disruption to parishioners who want to attend the OF.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 7, 2022 14:29:48 GMT
It's not comprehensive as I'm pretty sure there are additional dioceses in Latin America that suporessed it and aren't on there. It was an easy matter for those places to suppress it as they did not have it in the first place. Wrt "America" first of all the site is probably run by someone from US and second the TLM is more popular in the US than it is in a great many other countries (some countries like I said never had a TLM) so given the number of Catholics affected here it's a big deal. Even if it's only 1 percent of people in each diocese affected it adds up to a lot. Finally, this website is driven by the bishops' public statements and it's likely that not every bishop in the world has made one. Or if made, perhaps not submitted to the website by someone yet. But in any event I mostly found this useful for looking at trends in US, Canada and Europe, as all three are places where you have both Catholics and TLMs.Wrt suppression in USA, other than the handful of bishops like Cupich, Gregory and Parkes who are on a mission to stamp out the TLM, most of the places that instituted restrictions were restricting it to certain churches. For example, there used to be 5 in Diocese A and the bishop consolidated them to 2 locations. Prior to TC there was some thought that many parishes should have at least one TLM option if even a few parishioners wanted it, or that offering it at many parishes would cause others to fall in love with it more easily. Many bishops on the other hand were more in favor of seeing TLM consolidated in a couple locations often run by FSSP or similar in a dedicated church. This is understandable as it ensures that the TLMs are handled by priests/ churches well equipped for that and minimizes the disruption to parishioners who want to attend the OF. What do you mean, "both Catholics and TLMs"? I don't question your devotion to the TLM (though I realize you do not attend it exclusively or near-exclusively, as I do), but it's a curious turn of phrase. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 7, 2022 14:34:48 GMT
A very useful and interesting website I discovered tracking the implementation of TC around the world. traditioniscustodes.info/Unless I'm missing something, this site doesn't break out the policy in each diocese, nor does it list the dioceses where the TLM is suppressed, partially suppressed, or not suppressed. That would be helpful. |
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 7, 2022 15:18:22 GMT
It's not comprehensive as I'm pretty sure there are additional dioceses in Latin America that suporessed it and aren't on there. It was an easy matter for those places to suppress it as they did not have it in the first place. Wrt "America" first of all the site is probably run by someone from US and second the TLM is more popular in the US than it is in a great many other countries (some countries like I said never had a TLM) so given the number of Catholics affected here it's a big deal. Even if it's only 1 percent of people in each diocese affected it adds up to a lot. Finally, this website is driven by the bishops' public statements and it's likely that not every bishop in the world has made one. Or if made, perhaps not submitted to the website by someone yet. But in any event I mostly found this useful for looking at trends in US, Canada and Europe, as all three are places where you have both Catholics and TLMs.Wrt suppression in USA, other than the handful of bishops like Cupich, Gregory and Parkes who are on a mission to stamp out the TLM, most of the places that instituted restrictions were restricting it to certain churches. For example, there used to be 5 in Diocese A and the bishop consolidated them to 2 locations. Prior to TC there was some thought that many parishes should have at least one TLM option if even a few parishioners wanted it, or that offering it at many parishes would cause others to fall in love with it more easily. Many bishops on the other hand were more in favor of seeing TLM consolidated in a couple locations often run by FSSP or similar in a dedicated church. This is understandable as it ensures that the TLMs are handled by priests/ churches well equipped for that and minimizes the disruption to parishioners who want to attend the OF. What do you mean, "both Catholics and TLMs"? I don't question your devotion to the TLM (though I realize you do not attend it exclusively or near-exclusively, as I do), but it's a curious turn of phrase. There are countries in the world where the Catholic population is quite small and/or driven underground. It's unlikely that bishops in such locations will be coming out with a public decree on the TLM; the bishops there might not be coming out with public statements at all. There are also many countries in the world that have a significant number of Catholics, but have very few if any TLMs. They may be countries where the vast majority of the Catholics are not Latin Catholics aka Roman Catholics and thus attend the Byzantine or the Syro-Malabar or other non-Roman rite, or they may be countries where there has simply been little or no interest in TLM on the part of Catholics and/or clergy in that country (there are a number of Latin American countries that fall in this category). |
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 7, 2022 15:23:43 GMT
A very useful and interesting website I discovered tracking the implementation of TC around the world. traditioniscustodes.info/Unless I'm missing something, this site doesn't break out the policy in each diocese, nor does it list the dioceses where the TLM is suppressed, partially suppressed, or not suppressed. That would be helpful. Click on the country names and you get a breakdown of dioceses and the info reported for each diocese. In many cases it is not a consistent "policy" but more like "it was reported on Facebook that the diocese of XYZ in country ABC restricted some TLMs". The info for the US and UK is a bit more well-supported and complete. It's basically an organized form of what we were doing previously on another forum with a "post statements from bishops about TLM" thread. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 7, 2022 15:42:47 GMT
What do you mean, "both Catholics and TLMs"? I don't question your devotion to the TLM (though I realize you do not attend it exclusively or near-exclusively, as I do), but it's a curious turn of phrase. There are countries in the world where the Catholic population is quite small and/or driven underground. It's unlikely that bishops in such locations will be coming out with a public decree on the TLM; the bishops there might not be coming out with public statements at all. There are also many countries in the world that have a significant number of Catholics, but have very few if any TLMs. They may be countries where the vast majority of the Catholics are not Latin Catholics aka Roman Catholics and thus attend the Byzantine or the Syro-Malabar or other non-Roman rite, or they may be countries where there has simply been little or no interest in TLM on the part of Catholics and/or clergy in that country (there are a number of Latin American countries that fall in this category). Okay, I see what you are saying now. I'm still adjusting to standard time (my Elvis-inspired blackout bedroom window didn't help matters  ) and evidently the coffee hadn't kicked in yet. You were clearly talking about countries with both Catholics and TLM availability, with the latter varying from diocese to diocese, and from country to country. |
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 7, 2022 15:52:13 GMT
In the UK the TLM is more likely to occur in middle-class parishes, that's not an absolute and there are exceptions. In Ireland it is mainly going to appeal to the older folk who will go to it for a sense of historical continuity as it links them with the, 'faithful departed' such as their parents or grandparents. Bear has noted that going to the TLM makes her feel connected to ancestors who worshipped that way and some older Catholics in the UK and Ireland feel this way as well.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 7, 2022 15:52:32 GMT
Unless I'm missing something, this site doesn't break out the policy in each diocese, nor does it list the dioceses where the TLM is suppressed, partially suppressed, or not suppressed. That would be helpful. Click on the country names and you get a breakdown of dioceses and the info reported for each diocese. In many cases it is not a consistent "policy" but more like "it was reported on Facebook that the diocese of XYZ in country ABC restricted some TLMs". The info for the US and UK is a bit more well-supported and complete. It's basically an organized form of what we were doing previously on another forum with a "post statements from bishops about TLM" thread. Thanks, now I see how to use the website. BTW, the TLM is not totally suppressed on Sundays in the Archdiocese of Chicago. St John Cantius is forced to use the Latin NOM one Sunday a month, but the remaining Sundays have two TLMs. traditioniscustodes.info/countries/United%20States/Chicago |
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Post by tisbearself on Nov 7, 2022 16:05:03 GMT
In the UK the TLM is more likely to occur in middle-class parishes, that's not an absolute and there are exceptions. In Ireland it is mainly going to appeal to the older folk who will go to it for a sense of historical continuity as it links them with the, 'faithful departed' such as their parents or grandparents. Bear has noted that going to the TLM makes her feel connected to ancestors who worshipped that way and some older Catholics in the UK and Ireland feel this way as well. It's drawing many different age groups here, and there are a goodly number of families with children going to the TLMs. Generally in those cases it's being driven by a desire for more reverence and solemnity at Mass and a stronger emphasis on moral teachings and on catechesis in general than what's happening in the more loosey-goosey atmosphere of the average US parish church. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 7, 2022 16:19:42 GMT
In the UK the TLM is more likely to occur in middle-class parishes, that's not an absolute and there are exceptions. In Ireland it is mainly going to appeal to the older folk who will go to it for a sense of historical continuity as it links them with the, 'faithful departed' such as their parents or grandparents. Bear has noted that going to the TLM makes her feel connected to ancestors who worshipped that way and some older Catholics in the UK and Ireland feel this way as well. In our parish, the TLM attendees are overwhelmingly people who have no living memory of the TLM being the normative Mass of the Latin Rite. We attract people of every demographic, including people of color and some who appear to be "hipsters" --- man-buns, ponytails, and the occasional tattoo are not unheard of. (One of the men who carried the bier in a recent Marian procession had a man-bun.) If I had to guess (and this is a congregation of 100-150 people), the median age is probably south of 40, 35 would be more like it. We don't attract people who long for the TLM of their youth in any significant numbers. These are people who have discovered it anew, and prefer it to the Novus Ordo. My son and I were talking the other day about whether people in biker gear and hip-hop fashion would be welcome. Absolutely! Women who dress like "ratchets" or "hoochie mamas" would get a certain stink-eye, but that is a very rare occurrence. We get the occasional case of skintight jeans, but that's about as bad as it gets. |
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Post by theguvnor on Nov 7, 2022 16:37:03 GMT
Here it has some younger adherents - but you'd tend to get to the highly educated - people like Luke Anthony who posts here or his British equivalent - moderately socially conservative youngsters at university. That's a niche group if there ever was and Luke has spoken about how he feels out of place studying in New Zealand, at university here he'd likely feel doubly so. The amount of junk I hear is immense. I'm part of the panel which supposed to forward proposals for the MA course that replaces my own next year. I'm a fairly left-wing bloke, but I'm old-school Arthur Scargill or Neil Kinnock style left-wing and more concerned with practical stuff like jobs and housing and so forth. Yes, I despise racism and dislike colonialism but it has got to the point where people are seeing it lurking behind everything. A classic example is use of the term, 'black humour' is now disallowed except as a quote as it furthers objectivist stereotypes of people of colour. All this nonsense mind you is being authored by people who rarely interact with black people. When one of these individuals heard me saying hello to a friend on a phone and going, 'Allow it brethren' in street slang he accused me of cultural appropriation. I gave him a frosty look and passed the phone to him and went, 'Explain that to my mate there.' Said mate been a Jamaican who does stupid Irish jokes back at me when talking. He once caused weird looks when looking for me in a pub by going, 'Where's that Irish b***d? He's supposed to meet me here.' I'll admit this is deliberate and we do like winding people up doing it but this was a private phone call I was having in my own time outside the building. I nearly told the bloke giving me this lovely little PC lecture to eff off.
Another great moment of joy is when someone decided to add science-fiction and speculative fiction from minority voices to the syllabus. Except they haven't got a clue about such literature and were citing works from about fifty years back as though nothing else had been written since. When I put forward genres such as Afro-Futurism someone wouldn't believe the genre existed till I went and found examples of works in it and several exhibitions focusing on Afro-Futurist themes in clothing and art. Their idea of black sci-fi was Samuel R. Delaney. He is a major name in that field but he first published work nearly 60 years ago and when I threw out newer names it was sadly evident for all their attempts at wanting to appear inclusive they were lost. Octavia Butler, never heard of her. Steven Barnes, never heard of him. This went on and on for a fair bit. Obviously, no-one can have heard of everyone but Octavia Butler is a very well-known writer and it was disappointing that not one person had heard of her.
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) and evidently the coffee hadn't kicked in yet.