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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 14, 2022 9:26:22 GMT
The short answer: very, very few. Creating propers for newly canonized saints, that's just a given. Aside from that, not much. adoremus.org/2019/03/q-what-changes-were-made-to-the-tridentine-missal-before-1962/And the Mass of the Roman Rite was celebrated in Latin as far back as AD 190, with Pope Gregory the Great putting the Mass into basically the same form as the "Tridentine Mass" by the 8th century. Were there vernacular Masses in the Western Church at any time prior to the 20th century (making allowance for special indults such as those for China, Croatia, and the Mohawk)? As Jerry Seinfeld would say, "not that there's anything wrong with that", but did non-Latin Roman Rite Masses exist? Where and for how long? And when did Latin become the sole liturgical language of the West? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Tridentine_MassIf the faithful have to hear Mass in, and be able to pray in, their own vernacular, or at least in a language they understand, then doesn't this mean that, at least with regard to liturgy, the Holy Ghost abandoned the Church for at least 1500 years? And when did people in Europe, at least outside of the region of Latium, cease to be able to understand liturgical Latin? Scholars, that's another story, but I refer to the common people. Indeed, in Germanic areas, your typical illiterate and unschooled peasant would never have understood it. Bilingual printed hand missals wouldn't have existed, and even if they had, an illiterate person couldn't have read them. Books of any kind were very rare until Gutenburg invented the printing press.
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Post by farronwolf on Nov 14, 2022 16:29:29 GMT
I believe somewhere in the Bible it talks about the Apostles going out and talking to the people, and somehow, even though the people didn't speak the same language they were able to understand in their own tongue.
Seems to me if God thought it was a good idea for the people of Jesus' time to be able to understand God's message, it would apply for future generations as well. But what do I know.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 14, 2022 17:21:34 GMT
I believe somewhere in the Bible it talks about the Apostles going out and talking to the people, and somehow, even though the people didn't speak the same language they were able to understand in their own tongue. Seems to me if God thought it was a good idea for the people of Jesus' time to be able to understand God's message, it would apply for future generations as well. But what do I know. So far as I am aware, that was a charismatic gift of the early Church, a kind of miraculous Google Translate, if you will. Obviously we don't have that today. Using the reasoning that "you have to be able to understand the Mass in your own language", then that would mean the Holy Ghost left His Church (or at least the Roman Rite) "high and dry" for over 1500 years, from the waning days of the Roman Empire up until 1965-1970. That's an awfully long time for souls to be left without something that was supposedly so vital to their spiritual well-being. In the meantime, we had multitudes of saints (and not just the canonized ones), not all of whom knew Latin well enough to understand the entire Mass. To suggest that the liturgy of the Roman Church was deficient in its ability to bring souls to greater holiness for 1500 years is sounding a whole lot like "Protestantism through the back door". They typically skip over the period ca. 500-1500 as "the Dark Ages", when, in their view, Christians labored under a gravely deficient, and even heretical, religion. Some Baptists even propose an alternate time line during which "true Christians" constituted a non-Roman, persecuted underground Church, a "trail of blood", while apostate Rome (as they see it) melded paganism with the remnants of the Roman Empire and laid a veneer of idolatrous quasi-Christianity over top of it, to which they forced everyone to bow.
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Post by farronwolf on Nov 14, 2022 20:10:52 GMT
I believe somewhere in the Bible it talks about the Apostles going out and talking to the people, and somehow, even though the people didn't speak the same language they were able to understand in their own tongue. Seems to me if God thought it was a good idea for the people of Jesus' time to be able to understand God's message, it would apply for future generations as well. But what do I know. So far as I am aware, that was a charismatic gift of the early Church, a kind of miraculous Google Translate, if you will. Obviously we don't have that today. Using the reasoning that "you have to be able to understand the Mass in your own language", then that would mean the Holy Ghost left His Church (or at least the Roman Rite) "high and dry" for over 1500 years, from the waning days of the Roman Empire up until 1965-1970. That's an awfully long time for souls to be left without something that was supposedly so vital to their spiritual well-being. In the meantime, we had multitudes of saints (and not just the canonized ones), not all of whom knew Latin well enough to understand the entire Mass. To suggest that the liturgy of the Roman Church was deficient in its ability to bring souls to greater holiness for 1500 years is sounding a whole lot like "Protestantism through the back door". They typically skip over the period ca. 500-1500 as "the Dark Ages", when, in their view, Christians labored under a gravely deficient, and even heretical, religion. Some Baptists even propose an alternate time line during which "true Christians" constituted a non-Roman, persecuted underground Church, a "trail of blood", while apostate Rome (as they see it) melded paganism with the remnants of the Roman Empire and laid a veneer of idolatrous quasi-Christianity over top of it, to which they forced everyone to bow. I suggested no such thing. Think about this for a bit. In the early Church there were no written manuscripts, Lectionaries, or any of that. It was all done by word of mouth. Most likely in the vernacular. As time went on, the Bible was established, Lectionaries were made, they were all hand written. Was it feasible for them to be written in all the different vernaculars, nope. It remained that way for a long, long, long time. Then came the printing press, now folks can print materials, although it was still a tedious process as it was movable type, not the current let's print a book and bind it like we have had for recent history. So again not really feasible to have many different translations all in different languages. Only due to modern technology has it been feasible to make the change from Latin to the vernacular. So I have said no such thing that you are referring to. But if we use your line of thinking, are you saying that the Holy Ghost has left the Church since 1965-70, and the Church is now void of God? By your own statement, you are agreeing that some folks don't have a clue as to what is happening during the Latin Mass, and haven't for centuries, I agree completely with you on that. One question. Was the Church expanded and spread into new territories simply because of the Mass, or was the spread of the Church done through communication in the vernacular with the people, explaining who Jesus was, what he did and what he taught? Take the Spanish who came to North America. Did they just set up and start saying Mass in Latin and the people were suddenly converted, or were the people taught in their own language and converted, (let's discount the conversion at the end of the sword for this time), and then introduced to a Mass which was said in Latin?
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 15, 2022 14:58:32 GMT
So far as I am aware, that was a charismatic gift of the early Church, a kind of miraculous Google Translate, if you will. Obviously we don't have that today. Using the reasoning that "you have to be able to understand the Mass in your own language", then that would mean the Holy Ghost left His Church (or at least the Roman Rite) "high and dry" for over 1500 years, from the waning days of the Roman Empire up until 1965-1970. That's an awfully long time for souls to be left without something that was supposedly so vital to their spiritual well-being. In the meantime, we had multitudes of saints (and not just the canonized ones), not all of whom knew Latin well enough to understand the entire Mass. To suggest that the liturgy of the Roman Church was deficient in its ability to bring souls to greater holiness for 1500 years is sounding a whole lot like "Protestantism through the back door". They typically skip over the period ca. 500-1500 as "the Dark Ages", when, in their view, Christians labored under a gravely deficient, and even heretical, religion. Some Baptists even propose an alternate time line during which "true Christians" constituted a non-Roman, persecuted underground Church, a "trail of blood", while apostate Rome (as they see it) melded paganism with the remnants of the Roman Empire and laid a veneer of idolatrous quasi-Christianity over top of it, to which they forced everyone to bow. I suggested no such thing. Think about this for a bit. In the early Church there were no written manuscripts, Lectionaries, or any of that. It was all done by word of mouth. Most likely in the vernacular. As time went on, the Bible was established, Lectionaries were made, they were all hand written. Was it feasible for them to be written in all the different vernaculars, nope. It remained that way for a long, long, long time. Then came the printing press, now folks can print materials, although it was still a tedious process as it was movable type, not the current let's print a book and bind it like we have had for recent history. So again not really feasible to have many different translations all in different languages. Only due to modern technology has it been feasible to make the change from Latin to the vernacular. So I have said no such thing that you are referring to. But if we use your line of thinking, are you saying that the Holy Ghost has left the Church since 1965-70, and the Church is now void of God? By your own statement, you are agreeing that some folks don't have a clue as to what is happening during the Latin Mass, and haven't for centuries, I agree completely with you on that. One question. Was the Church expanded and spread into new territories simply because of the Mass, or was the spread of the Church done through communication in the vernacular with the people, explaining who Jesus was, what he did and what he taught? Take the Spanish who came to North America. Did they just set up and start saying Mass in Latin and the people were suddenly converted, or were the people taught in their own language and converted, (let's discount the conversion at the end of the sword for this time), and then introduced to a Mass which was said in Latin? And I was not implying that you suggested that. I regret any such inference being drawn. My comments were for general consumption, as well as to refute the implicit notion, if it exists, that the Church was deficient in her liturgy for 1500 years. If it was always the Mind of the Holy Ghost for the faithful to be able to understand every word of the liturgy as well as they understood their own vernacular languages, then that would leave a 1500-year gap where He allowed the faithful to be spiritually malnourished. People did not all of a sudden quit understanding liturgical Latin in the 19th or 20th centuries. And Pope St Pius X was very clear that "active participation" referred to music, not to being able to "dialogue" the Mass. No, I am not suggesting that the Holy Ghost left the Church after Vatican II. I have no objection in principle to a vernacular liturgy. It has precedent in certain missionary efforts (Croatia, China, Native American civilizations) and, truth be told, due largely to Protestant influence in societies such as the United States, there is an implicit expectation that the Catholic faithful will be able to understand everything that happens on the altar. I will also acknowledge that something had to be done --- via good catechesis or even use of the vernacular in some cases --- to educate people in what was happening at Mass, and not merely to have them be passive observers of an action between the priest and the acolytes. All that a lot of people understood, was that there was some great mystery going on, and that they'd been taught from childhood that this was something at which they were obliged to be present. I have heard anecdotes of men going out to smoke a cigarette during Mass, or in Quebec, even smoking in church. For some, it was a case of "show up at Mass or go to hell". That was a very flawed notion of what Mass is. The Church's missionary efforts, as you note, went beyond Mass itself. Of course the people had to be taught in their own languages, yet Mass is not primarily a teaching tool --- it's not "Sunday school" --- rather, it is the priest offering the Sacrifice of Calvary for the living and the dead ( pro vivis atque defunctis) and confecting the Body and Blood of Our Lord. It's far more than just "presiding over the assembly of the faithful" --- a Protestant praise and worship service does as much. Do the faithful generally understand the importance of this?
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Post by farronwolf on Nov 16, 2022 17:14:13 GMT
I suggested no such thing. Think about this for a bit. In the early Church there were no written manuscripts, Lectionaries, or any of that. It was all done by word of mouth. Most likely in the vernacular. As time went on, the Bible was established, Lectionaries were made, they were all hand written. Was it feasible for them to be written in all the different vernaculars, nope. It remained that way for a long, long, long time. Then came the printing press, now folks can print materials, although it was still a tedious process as it was movable type, not the current let's print a book and bind it like we have had for recent history. So again not really feasible to have many different translations all in different languages. Only due to modern technology has it been feasible to make the change from Latin to the vernacular. So I have said no such thing that you are referring to. But if we use your line of thinking, are you saying that the Holy Ghost has left the Church since 1965-70, and the Church is now void of God? By your own statement, you are agreeing that some folks don't have a clue as to what is happening during the Latin Mass, and haven't for centuries, I agree completely with you on that. One question. Was the Church expanded and spread into new territories simply because of the Mass, or was the spread of the Church done through communication in the vernacular with the people, explaining who Jesus was, what he did and what he taught? Take the Spanish who came to North America. Did they just set up and start saying Mass in Latin and the people were suddenly converted, or were the people taught in their own language and converted, (let's discount the conversion at the end of the sword for this time), and then introduced to a Mass which was said in Latin? And I was not implying that you suggested that. I regret any such inference being drawn. My comments were for general consumption, as well as to refute the implicit notion, if it exists, that the Church was deficient in her liturgy for 1500 years. If it was always the Mind of the Holy Ghost for the faithful to be able to understand every word of the liturgy as well as they understood their own vernacular languages, then that would leave a 1500-year gap where He allowed the faithful to be spiritually malnourished. People did not all of a sudden quit understanding liturgical Latin in the 19th or 20th centuries. And Pope St Pius X was very clear that "active participation" referred to music, not to being able to "dialogue" the Mass. No, I am not suggesting that the Holy Ghost left the Church after Vatican II. I have no objection in principle to a vernacular liturgy. It has precedent in certain missionary efforts (Croatia, China, Native American civilizations) and, truth be told, due largely to Protestant influence in societies such as the United States, there is an implicit expectation that the Catholic faithful will be able to understand everything that happens on the altar. I will also acknowledge that something had to be done --- via good catechesis or even use of the vernacular in some cases --- to educate people in what was happening at Mass, and not merely to have them be passive observers of an action between the priest and the acolytes. All that a lot of people understood, was that there was some great mystery going on, and that they'd been taught from childhood that this was something at which they were obliged to be present. I have heard anecdotes of men going out to smoke a cigarette during Mass, or in Quebec, even smoking in church. For some, it was a case of "show up at Mass or go to hell". That was a very flawed notion of what Mass is. The Church's missionary efforts, as you note, went beyond Mass itself. Of course the people had to be taught in their own languages, yet Mass is not primarily a teaching tool --- it's not "Sunday school" --- rather, it is the priest offering the Sacrifice of Calvary for the living and the dead ( pro vivis atque defunctis) and confecting the Body and Blood of Our Lord. It's far more than just "presiding over the assembly of the faithful" --- a Protestant praise and worship service does as much. Do the faithful generally understand the importance of this? As you admit, catechesis isn't taught during Mass, so the form of Mass would have little to do with a persons knowledge of Church teachings or whether they understand what is actually taking place during the Mass. So any argument suggesting those who attend Mass X over Mass Y being better informed is not a product of the form of the Mass, but a product of the teachings outside the Mass setting. However, I would argue that for those ignorant on either of the matters, much less is learned when one doesn't understand what is being said. Questions can't be asked to gain additional knowledge when one is completely oblivious to what has happened in the first place. As far as preferring a Mass that is full of chants and incense vs one that is less "high" or traditional, the same might be said with regards to a concert for example. Some people might prefer a spectacular light show or effects over a person sitting on the stage with an acoustic guitar and a single microphone.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 16, 2022 23:07:26 GMT
I don't think I'm advancing such a "Mass X over Mass Y" argument. If my comments can be interpreted that way, it's not my intent.
I do advocate greater knowledge of what the Mass is about, and this might be better had through good catechesis outside of Mass. When a large percentage of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence, do not understand why immodest dress and side conversations aren't appropriate for Mass, do not understand their Sunday obligation, do not understand why they must not receive communion in mortal sin (assuming they even know what that is), and do not understand why they must be attentive not to desecrate even the smallest fragment if they choose to receive communion in the hand, then it's obvious that they're not learning this even at a reformed vernacular Mass. Why not?
FWIW, none of these things are a problem at the TLM.
And I do understand that there is a stripe of Catholic, whose sincerity and holiness I do not question, who would feel cheated if their Mass didn't include a fulsome sign of peace, holding hands for the Our Father recited in union, and being able to raise their voices in song to the tune of "On Angels' Wings" and "Here I Am Lord".
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Post by farronwolf on Nov 16, 2022 23:44:10 GMT
I don't think I'm advancing such a "Mass X over Mass Y" argument. If my comments can be interpreted that way, it's not my intent. I do advocate greater knowledge of what the Mass is about, and this might be better had through good catechesis outside of Mass. When a large percentage of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence, do not understand why immodest dress and side conversations aren't appropriate for Mass, do not understand their Sunday obligation, do not understand why they must not receive communion in mortal sin (assuming they even know what that is), and do not understand why they must be attentive not to desecrate even the smallest fragment if they choose to receive communion in the hand, then it's obvious that they're not learning this even at a reformed vernacular Mass. Why not?FWIW, none of these things are a problem at the TLM. And I do understand that there is a stripe of Catholic, whose sincerity and holiness I do not question, who would feel cheated if their Mass didn't include a fulsome sign of peace, holding hands for the Our Father recited in union, and being able to raise their voices in song to the tune of "On Angels' Wings" and "Here I Am Lord". That is a pretty bold statement. To suggest that no person has attended a TLM with immodest dress, or had a conversation during the Mass, or might not believe in the real presence, or receiving while under mortal sin, would mean that you are knowledgeable of what has taken place at every TLM. Big, big stretch. And again, learning of these things isn't done at Mass, so why would you suggest they didn't learn them even at a reformed Mass. You are in fact contradicting your statement in the first sentence of the above post. No interpretation needed. Like it or not, your posts do indicate that you feel the NO is lacking and what has contributed to the decline of the Church. Again, no interpretation needed.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 17, 2022 0:30:16 GMT
I don't think I'm advancing such a "Mass X over Mass Y" argument. If my comments can be interpreted that way, it's not my intent. I do advocate greater knowledge of what the Mass is about, and this might be better had through good catechesis outside of Mass. When a large percentage of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence, do not understand why immodest dress and side conversations aren't appropriate for Mass, do not understand their Sunday obligation, do not understand why they must not receive communion in mortal sin (assuming they even know what that is), and do not understand why they must be attentive not to desecrate even the smallest fragment if they choose to receive communion in the hand, then it's obvious that they're not learning this even at a reformed vernacular Mass. Why not?FWIW, none of these things are a problem at the TLM. And I do understand that there is a stripe of Catholic, whose sincerity and holiness I do not question, who would feel cheated if their Mass didn't include a fulsome sign of peace, holding hands for the Our Father recited in union, and being able to raise their voices in song to the tune of "On Angels' Wings" and "Here I Am Lord". That is a pretty bold statement. To suggest that no person has attended a TLM with immodest dress, or had a conversation during the Mass, or might not believe in the real presence, or receiving while under mortal sin, would mean that you are knowledgeable of what has taken place at every TLM. Big, big stretch. And again, learning of these things isn't done at Mass, so why would you suggest they didn't learn them even at a reformed Mass. You are in fact contradicting your statement in the first sentence of the above post. No interpretation needed. Like it or not, your posts do indicate that you feel the NO is lacking and what has contributed to the decline of the Church. Again, no interpretation needed. If these things do happen, they are very, very rare. I can't say that some poorly catechized "seeker" never, ever comes to the TLM with an imperfect understanding of the Real Presence. You do have the occasional woman who comes to Mass in skin-tight jeans or a low-cut top, but it is very rare, and people who engage in "side conversations" are incredibly rare as well --- in both instances, it would be someone utterly unfamiliar with what is expected at the TLM. People with any familiarity with the TLM understand the Sunday obligation, and understand what mortal sin is, and why it makes one unworthy to receive Holy Communion. And CITH is not given at the TLM. As to the things other than CITH (which isn't an issue because it isn't done), if someone comes to the TLM, returns, and makes it their Mass of choice, they will pick up on the other things in short order. That is how I can assert that "none of these things are a problem at the TLM". Such things are self-correcting. I do maintain that the TLM is more explicit, and more repetitive, as to being the holy Sacrifice, and is more "vertical" towards Almighty God, as opposed to being a more "horizontal" "assembly of the faithful". The Mass as Sacrifice is still there, the Real Presence is still there, but if you will read the prayers of the TLM and the Novus Ordo side by side, the difference should be clear. I am not saying that a truncated, simplified Mass, in and of itself, is "lacking" in anything essential to the Faith, and that, in itself, it has been "what has contributed to the decline of the Church", but its implementation has been flawed, and the irreverence of many Masses, as well as a decreased respect for the Sacred Species, is too well-known to bear repeating here. Given the massive changes in society, what things would have been like, if there had been the TLM and only the TLM, entirely in Latin, with the familiar rubrics, from 1965 to the present, is a hypothetical that could take many different forms. One scenario might be what happened in Quebec with the revolution tranquille --- all of a sudden, people just quit going to Mass, for reasons largely unrelated to this liturgy or that, due to Quebec's troubled history WRT the Church, it was a case of "we're not doing this anymore". The same thing might have happened elsewhere for different reasons. There's no way to say. But there most certainly is a "way to say" that availability of the TLM is a case of "supply creates its own demand", and where it goes, it grows. To try and squelch this, as TC has done, smacks of the recent poor business decisions of Elon Musk WRT Twitter. He's driving the company into the ground by being so infatuated with his own vision that he can't see what effect it is having --- or, alternatively, he may just not care. "My way or the highway" is a deeply disliked mindset in today's world, and Elon has very few cheerleaders.
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Post by homeschooldad on Nov 17, 2022 0:37:45 GMT
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