|
Post by homeschooldad on Jan 2, 2023 14:13:46 GMT
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/31/us/human-life-begin.html?referringSource=articleShareThis is a very good article, with at least a respectful nod to those who believe life begins at conception, or at the very least, that a unique entity is created whose life is worthy of protection at some point. People obviously differ on this. And some moral and ethical systems allow for the willful taking of human life under circumstances that others do not, "the end justifies the means" and similar constructs. We as Catholics, of course, know that the end never justifies the means, but others differ for various reasons, or maybe no reason at all other than a pragmatism that prefers the life of the mother. I would be interested to know where the author got the justification for the throwaway comment that Pius IX deemed life to begin at conception. There is obviously something there unique, but whether it has an immortal soul at some Point X, not even the Catechism attempts to define this, though some English-speakers misread (with some internally coherent logic) "immediately" to mean that the soul is infused at conception, whereas in this context, "immediately" has the more obscure meaning of "without human mediation". It is as I always say, when a hunter goes into the forest, they do not fire their rifle assuming that the noise in the bushes "probably" isn't a person, no, they have to be sure. As one of the rules of firearms safety goes, be sure of your target and what is behind it. An article well worth reading.
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Jan 2, 2023 15:11:07 GMT
The Catechism teaches that life begins at conception, CCC 2270. We do not concern ourselves with ideas, old or new, about "ensoulment". www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2270.htmPope Pius IX in Apostolica sedes of 1869 is generally regarded as first promulgating this position as being the safest course of moral action given that we have no way of knowing the time of ensoulment. I cannot right now find online an actual digital copy of the 1869 document to link unfortunately. In addition if I did find it, it would be in Latin, which you and I could probably read but your average English speaking journalist couldn't, so be prepared for them to get nuances wrong as they work from secondary sources in English.
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jan 2, 2023 16:23:45 GMT
The Catechism teaches that life begins at conception, CCC 2270. We do not concern ourselves with ideas, old or new, about "ensoulment". www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2270.htmPope Pius IX in Apostolica sedes of 1869 is generally regarded as first promulgating this position as being the safest course of moral action given that we have no way of knowing the time of ensoulment. I cannot right now find online an actual digital copy of the 1869 document to link unfortunately. In addition if I did find it, it would be in Latin, which you and I could probably read but your average English speaking journalist couldn't, so be prepared for them to get nuances wrong as they work from secondary sources in English. Assuming that the immortal soul is infused at conception is indeed the pars tutior, this gets back to what I was saying about firearms safety. Not to engage in Clintonian semantics, but it then becomes a question of defining the terms "human life" and "homicide". Does human life exist in that liminal space, assuming there is one, between the moment of conception when unique DNA is created, and the first cell starts dividing, and the moment when the immortal soul is infused? And does the crime of homicide only take place when one kills an unborn conceived entity that has an immortal soul? (And every living thing has a "soul" of sorts, an animating force --- otherwise it wouldn't be living --- but the question that then begs to be asked and answered, in the case of a conceived human entity, is whether that animating principle is an immortal soul, and if not, when does the immortal soul come into being?) First, CCC 2270 which you cited: Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.And then there is CCC 366, to which I referred: The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.Some see the word "immediately" and incorrectly think that this means "at the moment of conception". That is not what "immediately" means in this context. Here, it means "without mediation", or to use the words of CCC 366, "it is not 'produced' by the parents". The tortured comments of Pope Francis about personhood being "disputed", as he put it, then, are not wrong, but they are confusing. (So what else is new?) Finally, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception strongly hints at the immortal soul existing from the first moment of life. I could probably hack my way through Pius IX's Latin, but I would defer to your reading, as you have actually studied Latin in a formal setting, whereas I've had to teach myself, largely by osmosis.
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jan 2, 2023 16:35:40 GMT
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Jan 2, 2023 21:10:53 GMT
Yeah I saw that but I'm a little leery of reading anything put out by Irish media nowadays. As has been discussed on forums before, the whole country is on a bit of a pro-abortion anti-Church kick these days. Logically, I can understand why, as they're one of those regions where the clergy and religious wielded too much power and often abused their power, abused people, or were just needlessly harsh or even mean or cruel. However, as a Catholic trying to live by the Church teaching, I am not interested in hearing someone with hangups about the Church trying to poke holes. I'm beyond the phase of my life to care about that much less support it or want to read it or care why someone wants to go on in that way, they can just go do that on their own clock and leave me out.
|
|
|
Post by theguvnor on Jan 2, 2023 22:06:57 GMT
I shall quote from Cordwainer Smith the subject of my dissertation as I have literally just finished it. Smith was a committed Christian - albeit an eccentric one.-
“Rod, they’ll cover us. Please make a trip with me, Rod. One last dangerous trip. Not for you. Not for me. For life, Rod.
And anyone who wants to read his work will soon find out his opinions on abortion are pretty much in keeping with Catholicism even though he was a High Anglican from an American Blue Blood family. That's his signature character C'mell the cat girl who is not human but shows up humans' lack of morality quite regularly in Smith's work. Bear would probably find the author's endless love of cats interesting. C'mell is derived from his favourite cat Melanie who appears in photos with him quite a bit. His daughter let me have some of these from her youth for source material and you can see cats bouncing around the house and one her father's lap and shoulders quite a bit.
|
|