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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 27, 2023 15:29:13 GMT
www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/the-anglican-use-a-better-novus-ordoI've always said that if making the liturgy more accessible to the faithful was the issue, simply translating the Tridentine missal into the vernacular would have been an option. The Anglican Use closely mirrors what this would look like. Even though I, myself, do not feel a need to hear Mass in the vernacular, I fully well understand that everyone is not me, and, truth be told, the 400-year existence of Protestantism as a cultural phenomenon has established the expectation in the popular mind that liturgy needs to be in the language of the people. The Anglican Use accomplishes this. If I did not have the TLM available, and had the Anglican Use reasonably near me, it would be "the next best thing", indeed, I have attended Anglican Masses (not Anglican Use, but at a traditional Anglican parish not part of the mainline Episcopal church) as a guest, and had to ask myself "why don't we do it like this?". It is beautiful, it is majestic, and it is holy. I fully intend to assist at an Anglican Ordinariate Mass the next time I have an opportunity to do so.
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Post by tisbearself on Jan 27, 2023 23:01:36 GMT
I thought you didn't like thees and thous and such in your language? Just warning you that you will encounter a bit of that at the Ordinariate.
Also, if you go on an HDO or other special day, be prepared for enough incense to cloud your vision. I generally like incense but when I went to the Ordinariate Christmas Mass and Epiphany Evensong, I had a sinus attack.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 28, 2023 0:49:43 GMT
I thought you didn't like thees and thous and such in your language? Just warning you that you will encounter a bit of that at the Ordinariate. Also, if you go on an HDO or other special day, be prepared for enough incense to cloud your vision. I generally like incense but when I went to the Ordinariate Christmas Mass and Epiphany Evensong, I had a sinus attack. (Apologies to Miss Piggy.) That wasn't me, if I ever said such a thing, I had probably been drinking or something. [JOKE ALERT  , as you know, I am almost entirely a teetotaler.] I have no issues whatsoever with "thee", "thou", "vouchsafe", or any of that other glorious, majestic literary English, quite the contrary, I use such language in the Our Father, the Hail Mary, and other prayers. Indeed, my Bible of preference is the Douay-Rheims, and despite some theological errors that crop up in it here and there, I honor the King James Bible as well, though I use it more for literary and comparative purposes. I hope we are never called upon to abandon the traditional Our Father in the Novus Ordo Mass --- that prayer (minus the doxology) is one thing we and traditional Protestants can agree upon, and that's a good thing. My nearest Ordinariate Masses are two hours away, and since my mother's health got worse, my son and I rarely venture more than an hour from home. |
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Post by theguvnor on Jan 28, 2023 13:26:47 GMT
Sorry to hear about your mother's health - watching parents age is truly one of the more painful things in life - in some respects having my own mother die fairly young was better as it avoided having to watch that slow dissolution that comes with age to those we thought invulnerable when we were small.
I have never had an issue with thees or thous and quite like them. I prefer the majest of the Douay-Rheims and King James. We utilized the Good News translation at school, which is safe, but also incredibly pedestrian and boring.
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Post by tisbearself on Jan 28, 2023 15:23:01 GMT
Sorry HSD, I must have gotten you mixed up with someone else. Yes, you will find "vouchsafe" and "it is meet and right to do so" et cetera at the Ordinariate. I like that stuff myself. To me it underscores the long, long history of the Mass among the English-speaking peoples. It also expands my vocabulary.
My mother had a copy of "Good News for Modern Man" when I was young, from her brief time as a CCD teacher. I tried reading it once and it sounded so weird to me at age 12 or however old I was, I didn't think it could really be the Bible. It certainly didn't sound like the readings at Mass, which were from the NAB, so pretty informal already without needing to make it even more so. I seem to recall reading later on that the Good News translation was intended as an "easy reader" version of the Bible for people who lacked reading skills or were just learning to read English.
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Post by theguvnor on Jan 28, 2023 17:03:56 GMT
This is why it was used at school for us to an extent as the area had a lot of kids for whom English was a second language or came from families with poor literacy. However, several of us even at ages 12 to 14 realized it was a rather dull and prosaic translation. But if you have a class full of kids from a load of different backgrounds you have to use something they can all understand to be fair to the school.
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Post by theguvnor on Jan 28, 2023 17:22:56 GMT
There was a kind of odd divide it occurs to me looking back between classes in that regard as most of our classes were streamed, with people of different ability levels been split up among various teachers and groups but RE was not. So, If you were studying Byron's poetry and the structure of sonnets and so forth and then went to the RE lesson and got the GNB Bible it was especially boring.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 28, 2023 17:57:48 GMT
Sorry to hear about your mother's health - watching parents age is truly one of the more painful things in life - in some respects having my own mother die fairly young was better as it avoided having to watch that slow dissolution that comes with age to those we thought invulnerable when we were small. I have never had an issue with thees or thous and quite like them. I prefer the majest of the Douay-Rheims and King James. We utilized the Good News translation at school, which is safe, but also incredibly pedestrian and boring. Actually it more has to do with issues of mobility and being able to do things for herself. Her overall health is sound, and at age 92, her mental acuity and ease of expression is more of a woman one-third her age. She doesn't miss a beat, and keeps up assiduously with current events, though she is reliant upon TV news as she can no longer see well enough to read. She especially likes the high-profile trial coverage, such as the Idaho murders and the Murdaugh case. (The Idaho guy is as guilty as sin, but I'm beginning to have my doubts that Alex Murdaugh did it. If nothing else, I think it's going to be another OJ Simpson affair, mutatis mutandis.) You'd never think it, coming from a theological and liturgical troglodyte such as me, but I actually like the more free-form, modern interpretations (and they're interpretations, not translations) such as the Good News Bible and the NIV. Indeed, I found an almost-forgotten copy of the NIV (charity book sale or Goodwill, I wouldn't pay full price for something like that) in my library, and I was just blown away by it --- "this is the most approachable Bible I've ever read!". I don't lose sight of the fact that translations must be precise and accurate, and I wouldn't use the GNB or the NIV for serious study, but I don't mind a smoother interpretation that reads like everyday contemporary English. The Gospel never tires of an easier way to be told, and even Matthew, Mark, and Luke told the same story with a slightly different "twist" on it for each of them. |
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Post by theguvnor on Jan 28, 2023 18:17:53 GMT
As I note the GNB serves a purpose. For many of those I grew up alongside English was a second language and their parents had little formal schooling. There would be no point attempt to lob the Douay-Rheims at them as you'd alienate them. You have to cater your approach to your audience. Many of my fellow students had parents working as bus conductors or in factories, they weren't stupid but you needed to approach them with the Gospel Message in a way that was understandable to them. The language of the Douay-Rheims or KJV Bible would put them off. Or at best they'd memorize or utilize a few passages here and there and it would become dead literature to them and not a living work.
As it is the Bible is now fading out of popular consciousness in the English mind to a large degree as the nation becomes more and more secularized. References you could have made to commonly made Biblical verses with the previous generation would get you blank states sadly nowadays in many places.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jan 28, 2023 18:51:24 GMT
As I note the GNB serves a purpose. For many of those I grew up alongside English was a second language and their parents had little formal schooling. There would be no point attempt to lob the Douay-Rheims at them as you'd alienate them. You have to cater your approach to your audience. Many of my fellow students had parents working as bus conductors or in factories, they weren't stupid but you needed to approach them with the Gospel Message in a way that was understandable to them. The language of the Douay-Rheims or KJV Bible would put them off. Or at best they'd memorize or utilize a few passages here and there and it would become dead literature to them and not a living work. As it is the Bible is now fading out of popular consciousness in the English mind to a large degree as the nation becomes more and more secularized. References you could have made to commonly made Biblical verses with the previous generation would get you blank states sadly nowadays in many places. I opted against using the Douay-Rheims in our homeschool religion classes, because while I love it myself, I foresaw that my son would find it strange and off-putting. So we use the RSV-CE instead. |
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Post by theguvnor on Jan 28, 2023 19:34:38 GMT
Yes, I would think only a very bookish child like myself would respond to the Douay-Rheims. As ever, people have different needs and responses. The GNB was bland but effective. However, it was rather bizarre to wander into a lesson with it when the English lesson would have included an hour or two of people like Andrew Marvell or someone like that. The difference in language was noticeable. But as I say the RE class was not separated by ability level and so you couldn't realistically use the Douay-Rheims with kids who had lower levels of literacy and the essential message is still there, which is what is important.
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Post by tth1 on Feb 15, 2023 11:11:00 GMT
www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/the-anglican-use-a-better-novus-ordoI've always said that if making the liturgy more accessible to the faithful was the issue, simply translating the Tridentine missal into the vernacular would have been an option. The Anglican Use closely mirrors what this would look like. Even though I, myself, do not feel a need to hear Mass in the vernacular, I fully well understand that everyone is not me, and, truth be told, the 400-year existence of Protestantism as a cultural phenomenon has established the expectation in the popular mind that liturgy needs to be in the language of the people. The Anglican Use accomplishes this. If I did not have the TLM available, and had the Anglican Use reasonably near me, it would be "the next best thing", indeed, I have attended Anglican Masses (not Anglican Use, but at a traditional Anglican parish not part of the mainline Episcopal church) as a guest, and had to ask myself "why don't we do it like this?". It is beautiful, it is majestic, and it is holy. I fully intend to assist at an Anglican Ordinariate Mass the next time I have an opportunity to do so. I haven't had the opportunity to attend an Ordinariate Divine Worship Mass. I have, however, seen the Ordinary of the Mass. (I have tried getting the Divine Worship Missal but it's out of print.) It does strike me that it is more like the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite in seventeenth century English than an English translation of the Extraordinary Form. I do know the Prayers of Preparation, older form of the Offertory and Last Gospel may be used but they are optional.
I would definitely anticipate plenty of incense at a more solemn celebration of Divine Worship Mass. I don't know if it's used at daily said Masses.
It's my intention to one day go to a Divine Worship Mass, especially a more solemn form.
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Post by ralfy on Feb 17, 2023 6:15:39 GMT
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, as you know, I am almost entirely a teetotaler.]
