bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
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Post by bluekumul on Jun 21, 2023 15:28:32 GMT
How do you visualize/conceptualize the Trinity?
Is it more proper to visualize three gods, with the Father as the leader, or One God with three ways of existence? I believe the second option is more compatible with the Bible. "I and the Father are one", but then we see Jesus having a conversation with the Father before the Crucifixion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 21:49:38 GMT
How do you visualize/conceptualize the Trinity? Is it more proper to visualize three gods, with the Father as the leader, or One God with three ways of existence? I believe the second option is more compatible with the Bible. "I and the Father are one", but then we see Jesus having a conversation with the Father before the Crucifixion. Neither is really correct. There is but One God - so to "visualise" the Trinity as three Gods is incorrect, even if one is using it as an aid to understanding. This is Tritheism, the idea that there are three Gods in the Trinity. God the Father is not the Leader as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and divine; all have existed eternally. As for the Trinity as "One God with three ways of existence", that is modalism. I would say the Trinity, being the greatest mystery of our faith, should not be placed into boxes like that. The Church has told us, there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All are equal, divine, uncreated; all are unlimited and without bound in majesty. But there are not three equal, uncreated, divine beings, but only one. The Athanasian Creed explains this all well.
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Post by tisbearself on Jun 22, 2023 6:09:46 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 7:57:11 GMT
The Scutum Fidei is a great diagram, tisbearself. I only just realised my first response is a perfect example of my habit of delving right into the deep end.....
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bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 200
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Post by bluekumul on Jun 22, 2023 12:23:54 GMT
None of the above explains the mystery. Perhaps I'd better stop trying to understand this. In Heaven it will become obvious.
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Post by tisbearself on Jun 22, 2023 21:26:43 GMT
None of the above explains the mystery. Perhaps I'd better stop trying to understand this. In Heaven it will become obvious. It's a "mystery" largely because it's not really explainable in human terms. There are great saints who have come to some appreciation of it or communion with it through their contemplation, but I don't think any of them would say they fully "understand" it. The Scutum Fidei diagram showing the perichoresis between the three persons is the closest thing I have found to a "logical explanation", and even then as you said it doesn't really "explain" it. It just shows what's going on. Three persons in one God, all in eternal existence and in constant communication with each other. Following the example of the saints like St. Elizabeth of the Trinity, I try to focus on just trying to be in communion with the indwelling Trinity (the Triune God living within each of us) rather than trying to understand how it works. My puny human mind will no doubt fail at the latter. I agree with you that if we reach Heaven, these concepts will likely become much more clear.
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Post by theguvnor on Jun 23, 2023 10:21:14 GMT
These 'trifacial' portraits flourished for a bit mainly in Italy and apparently, the Church was not overly keen on them. I've run into them several times before. They are reminiscent of Hindu devotional pictures in some respects.
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Post by tisbearself on Jun 23, 2023 11:09:51 GMT
The Church probably realized that three-faced Jesus scared the heck out of people.
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Post by theguvnor on Jun 23, 2023 11:36:40 GMT
It looks rather odd, to say the least. This style of painting the Trinity seems to have popped up in Peru as well at points but it is definitely a marginal tradition in regards to portraying the Trinity. I like line art - here's a rather more conventional representation of the Trinity in symbolic form:
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Post by ralfy on Jun 23, 2023 23:55:57 GMT
It's like putting the whole ocean in a little hole.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jun 24, 2023 1:17:11 GMT
The Church probably realized that three-faced Jesus scared the heck out of people. The "Trifacial Trinity" painting reminds me either of the Slavic pagan god Swiatowid (depicted on a kind of totem pole with four faces going in four different directions) or some kind of Hindu deity. Speaking of Hinduism, the other day I was musing on their god Ganesh (one of many) and how he is depicted as an elephant --- my neighbor is Hindu and has things like this on her front porch --- and that if a Christian were to challenge this (which I have not done to her), the Hindu could come right back and say "and you depict your God as a bird, an animal's an animal, so there". I know everyone here knows this, but the Trinity is ultimately not depictable. Any artistic representations are only efforts to visualize the Trinity in a way we can understand.
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Post by theguvnor on Jun 24, 2023 9:53:53 GMT
Of course, they are only symbols. Triple gods are common in Celtic myth as well. The goddess of war the Morrigan, the phantom or great queen (depending on how you translate Morrigan as there is a linguistic argument about this) is sometimes seen as a triple goddess.
She can appear as either a crone, a young attractive woman or a crow or in various other guises. She often pops up in stories as the 'washer by the ford' where she is washing the blood out of the garments of the slain. Triple gods and goddesses are a common theme in numerous faiths.
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