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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 14:19:53 GMT
I recently went down a rabbit hole when reading The Catechism, The Catechism of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, and then a couple of the documents after Vatican II.
My understanding is the traditional teaching of marriage is its purpose is for procreation and the education of children. No other purpose is equal to this and they're all lesser. However, the teaching after VII is that marriage (and the conjugal act) has dual purposes which are equal to each other-- procreation and unity.
To me, logically speaking a marriage is already unified by nature, so why would the Church have to teach that the purposes of include unity? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what unity means or how it's applied in this teaching. Also, I'd rather not include Christopher West's interpretations in this as I find that he's too flowery, and I don't think he's entirely represented Theology of the Body true to its teaching (not to mention some of the other things he's taught are definitely not aligned with Church teaching, but that's a different topic).
I've already read the arguments pertaining to couples who are infertile, post-menopausal, or elderly, and understand that the conjugal act in those situations is already ordered to procreation, and have no questions. It's a requirement that the conjugal act MUST be ordered to procreation, and when it's not (such as with contraception), that's a mortal sin.
Now logically, I can see why the Church teaches that marriage and the conjugal act have more than one purpose. This will sound TMI, and I did not ask to know this information, but many years ago a male friend told me how his ex-wife only saw him as a means to get her pregnant, rather than as a husband she loved. In that case, I would say that her behavior didn't treat the conjugal act as unitive and she separated it from procreation. Just how if a married couple separated procreation from the unitive aspect by using surgery for sterility or contraception.
However, the procreation + unity isn't traditional Church teaching. Unity can't be equal to procreation, but if I'm wrong please do correct me and point to the teaching.
Why isn't it reiterated that marriage is for the purpose of creating and rearing children? People often treat VII as if it supersedes or dismisses all previous teaching.
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Post by farronwolf on Jul 12, 2023 14:54:34 GMT
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY
1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84
The good of the spouses is listed before procreation and education.
1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."92 The woman, "flesh of his flesh," i.e., his counterpart, his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a "helpmate"; she thus represents God from whom comes our help.93 "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."94 The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been "in the beginning": "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."95
If man and woman are created for one another, then how can procreation and education be the only purpose of marriage?
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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 15:09:05 GMT
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY 1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84 The good of the spouses is listed before procreation and education. 1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."92 The woman, "flesh of his flesh," i.e., his counterpart, his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a "helpmate"; she thus represents God from whom comes our help.93 "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."94 The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been "in the beginning": "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."95 If man and woman are created for one another, then how can procreation and education be the only purpose of marriage? I don't think that procreation and education of children is the only purpose of marriage. Maybe I should've included that they're the primary purpose of marriage, but traditional Catholic teaching doesn't state that "the good of the spouses" is equal to that. When I say traditional teaching, I'm talking about the teaching in place for hundreds of years, if not close to 2,000. But, what is the point of the conjugal act, for example? All species reproduce to create more of their kind. Humans engage in reproduction to make more humans. That's the reason why it exists. Since marriage is the only place where it's acceptable to have children and be intimate, it makes logical sense that its primary purpose is for bringing children into the world and rearing them. |
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Post by farronwolf on Jul 12, 2023 15:30:25 GMT
Since I haven't been around for 2000 years, I guess you would have to be a bit more specific as to the traditional teachings you are referring to. LOL.
In the second creation story in Genesis, it is clear that God made woman as a companion for man. As they become one flesh, they become "whole".
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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 15:32:54 GMT
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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 15:36:16 GMT
This is from Casti Connubii, which references the Code of Canon from 1907:
"17. Since, however, We have spoken fully elsewhere on the Christian education of youth,[18] let Us sum it all up by quoting once more the words of St. Augustine: "As regards the offspring it is provided that they should be begotten lovingly and educated religiously,"[19] - and this is also expressed succinctly in the Code of Canon Law - "The primary end of marriage is the procreation and the education of children."[20]"
This has been repeated over and over, until VII.
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Post by farronwolf on Jul 12, 2023 16:01:10 GMT
I am not buying into that.
49. The biblical Word of God several times urges the betrothed and the married to nourish and develop their wedlock by pure conjugal love and undivided affection.(10) Many men of our own age also highly regard true love between husband and wife as it manifests itself in a variety of ways depending on the worthy customs of various peoples and times.
50. Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the begetting and educating of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute very substantially to the welfare of their parents. The God Himself Who said, "it is not good for man to be alone" (Gen. 2:18) and "Who made man from the beginning male and female" (Matt. 19:4), wishing to share with man a certain special participation in His own creative work, blessed male and female, saying: "Increase and multiply" (Gen. 1:28). Hence, while not making the other purposes of matrimony of less account, the true practice of conjugal love, and the whole meaning of the family life which results from it, have this aim: that the couple be ready with stout hearts to cooperate with the love of the Creator and the Savior. Who through them will enlarge and enrich His own family day by day.
Yes, children may or may not be a result of marriage. The couple must be open to them.
But marriage as a vocation has built into it a purpose if done properly to be able to put another person before yourself, whether that be a spouse or a child. Just as Christ did when he sacrificed himself for us.
If one has never experienced a life long marriage or having a child it is hard to explain what this love is. No different than trying to explain the love God has for his children. But in my view, it is easier to understand once one has experienced marriage and being a parent. That is not to say that someone who hasn't been married or doesn't have children can't grasp God's love for us, but having experienced both marriage and being a parent, it is much more clear.
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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 16:42:32 GMT
Are you saying then that the unity aspect is equal to the procreative in marriage? Does Church teaching explicitly state that there are two equal purposes?
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Post by farronwolf on Jul 12, 2023 18:14:27 GMT
Are you saying then that the unity aspect is equal to the procreative in marriage? Does Church teaching explicitly state that there are two equal purposes? Why wouldn't it be? If God just wanted a bunch more people on the earth to love him, he could have easily made them, or wouldn't have instituted marriage as a sacrament, and just allowed people to procreate at their own discretion. |
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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 19:29:32 GMT
I can't find anywhere the Church explicitly states that the unitive purpose is equal to the procreative. In pre-VII teaching, the Church definitely recognizes the unitive and the procreative, but there's an hierarchy.
My understanding is that the purpose is procreation and education of children, BUT that does not mean the unitive and quieting of the concupiscence aren't derived from it. However, they aren't equal.
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Post by tisbearself on Jul 12, 2023 19:36:25 GMT
My Catholic mama taught me that the purpose of marriage was for each spouse to help the other one get to heaven.
Sounds reasonable to me.
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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 19:54:07 GMT
My Catholic mama taught me that the purpose of marriage was for each spouse to help the other one get to heaven. Sounds reasonable to me. Yes, that's the first reason listed in the Baltimore Catechism. |
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Post by theguvnor on Jul 12, 2023 20:31:55 GMT
We males are also useful for carrying heavy shopping bags I've discovered since being married.
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Post by copper on Jul 12, 2023 23:56:54 GMT
We males are also useful for carrying heavy shopping bags I've discovered since being married. 🤣 You forgot killing spiders, too. |
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Post by theguvnor on Jul 13, 2023 2:02:57 GMT
And that. Although I like spiders so I release them outside. I've never been scared of spiders and they seem to get on with me. No spider-powers though as yet.
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