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Post by tisbearself on Jul 29, 2023 12:35:35 GMT
I'm younger than you and do not remember the TLM at all. The earliest Mass form I remember was the transitional Mass rite that was used between the TLM and the earliest OF Mass (then it was called the Mass of Pope Paul VI). I was very young (toddler/ pre-K) during the transitional form years, but I remember there was still a high altar and the priest faced away from the people, and that the readings were in English and I believe communion was done standing up in a line, not kneeling at a rail. A few years later I made my first Holy Communion and was given a "children's missal" as a gift, which still showed the priest facing ad orientem as it had obviously been written and printed before the change to full OF.
When I go to TLMs they always have a good crowd, a percentage of people are old enough to actually remember TLM, but no more than 20 to 25 percent. The vast majority are people my age and younger. There are lots of people under 40 and many families with children who drive a distance to seek out this type of Mass.
One of my friends, who is about 50 with teen kids and isn't terribly trad in her lifestyle, now drives about an hour most Sundays to TLM with her young teen kids who also prefer TLM. Her daughter is really excited about learning Latin at her new high school, and none of them like contemporary Mass music at all. Like I said these are normal folks who aren't living any kind of trad lifestyle, they just have a preference for old skool Mass that none of them are old enough to recall firsthand - which also means they don't have all the baggage attached to it that some 75-year-old who associates it with mean nuns might have.
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Post by theguvnor on Jul 29, 2023 12:46:03 GMT
My mother gave me her own Missal as a gift as well as a new one. Her one was her mother's before her and is nearing a century old. It was an unusual thing to give to a child but I was a very bookish child and was fascinated with it. My father's oldest Missal (one of many) is pre-Vatican Two and has Latin and English in it.
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Post by farronwolf on Jul 29, 2023 14:10:58 GMT
It is a fairly bold assumption that just because a child is raised going to TLM that they will continue to prefer the TLM, much less remain active in the Church. History says you are wrong in that assumption. Who said the Church fears the TLM? That is your take due to your preference of the TLM, not anything that the Church has stated. Using that logic, any time the Church has made changes in the past they would have feared what came before the changes. What the Church may be against, which doesn't mean fear, is segments within the Church which feel they know better than the Church herself. She is right to take that position. The Church is looking for unity. Allowing the Holy Ghost to take it, is precisely the reason why there are untold numbers of Christian religions. Well, not so much the Holy Ghost, but various people's idea of where the Holy Ghost was leading them. All of which led away from unity. (1) Some remain with the TLM, some don't. I don't have figures, but I do know that a family at our parish has several adult children, married, who have children of their own, and bring them to the TLM. All told, that's probably 25-30 souls. They are by no means the only family of their kind. You don't need a lot of families to grow a TLM community significantly. (2) Well, something drove Pope Francis to promulgate TC, to put a "rush" on it --- no customary vacatio legis --- right before he underwent anesthesia (which doesn't agree with him) for a dangerous operation. ( All body cavity operations when you're in your 80s are "dangerous", especially when you're obese with only one good lung.) He himself admits that the TLM movement is growing. Best spin you could put on it, he wanted to preserve the TLM for some folks (FSSP et al) and feared that his successor would place even more restrictions (or a total ban) than he did. But that's really a stretch. (3) You refer to people who are outside the Church. The Holy Ghost is reliable within the Church, outside the Church, that's another story. It is a great mystery how (or even if) the Holy Ghost can dispense enough grace to bring people ostensibly to Christ, yet not enough to "close the deal" and bring them into the one true Church. There may be "spirits" at work that are something else. All we hear today is "we are Church" and "we are walking together in a synodal Church", well, all right, then, doesn't that mean that those who find something they are looking for in the TLM, which existed in its basic form for well over a millennium within the Church, may be led by the Holy Ghost as well? TLM adherents are "Church" too. Yes, TLM adherents are part of the Church, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily right, or that the Holy Spirit is guiding them does it? There have been many, many clergy and lay persons who were part of the Church and not led by the Holy Spirit in their actions. To think that the Holy Spirit is leading people to the TLM, but not believe that the Holy Spirit led the Church through VII is troublesome. I could care less if people choose to go to EF or the OF Mass. Most people could care less either. What gets tiresome is the constant whining, the constant "we are better", the constant division created by a minority group within the Church. Not much different than the minority groups causing division within our own country. When Christ said to believe like a child, he didn't say act like a child. It is clear by the number of posts created by you which try to justify your position, or show support for your position that you need validation of your beliefs. That isn't necessarily the Holy Spirit guiding you along.
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Post by ratioetfides on Jul 29, 2023 14:41:36 GMT
It would be interesting to know what proportion of these younger ‘TLM’ adherents organically developed their attachment through historical interest, familial connection, or some chance encounter vs being radicalized or duped online or in-person to believe the ‘TLM’ is the ‘real’ mass or somehow superior to the current Roman Missal.
We see many religious leaders/clerics/influencers making such nonsensical claims both online and in-person. We just saw one such foolish assertion made by the subject of the piece in the TLM in Africa post.
The church has a clear mind on the subject and that is to say the current Roman Missal is of the most advantage to the lay faithful, secular clerics, and the vast majority of religious in the Latin Rite.
Many of the proponents of this grow the ‘TLM’ movement consistently exploit a clearly narrow exception to advance their dilettante aesthetic preferences, liturgical fetishes, and fractious ideologies. They do so in clear contradiction to the mind of the church.
Much of the noise is about ‘access’ to the ‘TLM’ but even a cursory survey of those deeply invested in the movement makes it clear the goal is the restoration of the ‘TLM’ as a panacea to the woes of the church and society.
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Post by ratioetfides on Jul 29, 2023 16:03:35 GMT
It is a fairly bold assumption that just because a child is raised going to TLM that they will continue to prefer the TLM, much less remain active in the Church. History says you are wrong in that assumption. Who said the Church fears the TLM? That is your take due to your preference of the TLM, not anything that the Church has stated. Using that logic, any time the Church has made changes in the past they would have feared what came before the changes. What the Church may be against, which doesn't mean fear, is segments within the Church which feel they know better than the Church herself. She is right to take that position. The Church is looking for unity. Allowing the Holy Ghost to take it, is precisely the reason why there are untold numbers of Christian religions. Well, not so much the Holy Ghost, but various people's idea of where the Holy Ghost was leading them. All of which led away from unity. (1) Some remain with the TLM, some don't. I don't have figures, but I do know that a family at our parish has several adult children, married, who have children of their own, and bring them to the TLM. All told, that's probably 25-30 souls. They are by no means the only family of their kind. You don't need a lot of families to grow a TLM community significantly. (2) Well, something drove Pope Francis to promulgate TC, to put a "rush" on it --- no customary vacatio legis --- right before he underwent anesthesia (which doesn't agree with him) for a dangerous operation. ( All body cavity operations when you're in your 80s are "dangerous", especially when you're obese with only one good lung.) He himself admits that the TLM movement is growing. Best spin you could put on it, he wanted to preserve the TLM for some folks (FSSP et al) and feared that his successor would place even more restrictions (or a total ban) than he did. But that's really a stretch. (3) You refer to people who are outside the Church. The Holy Ghost is reliable within the Church, outside the Church, that's another story. It is a great mystery how (or even if) the Holy Ghost can dispense enough grace to bring people ostensibly to Christ, yet not enough to "close the deal" and bring them into the one true Church. There may be "spirits" at work that are something else. All we hear today is "we are Church" and "we are walking together in a synodal Church", well, all right, then, doesn't that mean that those who find something they are looking for in the TLM, which existed in its basic form for well over a millennium within the Church, may be led by the Holy Ghost as well? TLM adherents are "Church" too. In regards to the vacatio legis it seems pretty simple given that the customary timeline for legislation going into force is 1) 3 months for universal law 2) 1 month for particular law 3) or the date listed in the legislation itself. TC proclaimed the date in its text. So we can clearly see custom WAS followed. As to the ‘rush’ perhaps it was the feedback of the worldwide survey of bishops indicating that “[the] opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.” It seems this alone would be a sufficient reason to move and address the situation swiftly. One need not speculate as to ulterior motives or conspiracies to come up with a reasonable motivation. We consistently see nearly all aspects of this matter misrepresented as a means to sow doubt among the faithful and undermine the legitimacy of church leaders who do not conform to the radical conservative ideologies of some persons within the ‘TLM’ movement.
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 1:24:03 GMT
Went to a charismatic Mass with a rock band tonight. Big crowd attended, especially for a Friday night with inclement weather outside, I'd guess 200-300 people. About 90 percent of them appeared to be 60+ (including the rock band). There could be many reasons for that including how it was promoted, but every time I go to any kind of more traditional Mass whether it's TLM, Ordinariate, Dominican, or a "reverent OF" with some Latin and chant, there's a lot more people aged 18-35 at those. It's just the trend now to be more conservative. A lot of the young people know at least some Latin too and will throw it around in conversation just like me and my friends did in the late 70s/ early 80s. I was chuckling yesterday when I read an excerpt from the late Sinead O'Connor's memoirs and the opening quote was in Latin, a saying that was going around church musicians back then and she likely heard it just as I did.
I get this feeling that if it's "just the trend now to be more conservative," then the token references to Latin might be part of that.
In the end, people will have to confront what being traditional really means, and especially as they grow older.
With that, I'm guessing it's between an obsession with rock bands and with Latin and the EF.
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 1:36:06 GMT
Went to a charismatic Mass with a rock band tonight. Big crowd attended, especially for a Friday night with inclement weather outside, I'd guess 200-300 people. About 90 percent of them appeared to be 60+ (including the rock band). There could be many reasons for that including how it was promoted, but every time I go to any kind of more traditional Mass whether it's TLM, Ordinariate, Dominican, or a "reverent OF" with some Latin and chant, there's a lot more people aged 18-35 at those. It's just the trend now to be more conservative. A lot of the young people know at least some Latin too and will throw it around in conversation just like me and my friends did in the late 70s/ early 80s. I was chuckling yesterday when I read an excerpt from the late Sinead O'Connor's memoirs and the opening quote was in Latin, a saying that was going around church musicians back then and she likely heard it just as I did. I am one of the oldest people at my TLM (62). It's ironic because I have no living memory of a TLM-only Church (i.e., Roman Rite), I first crossed the Catholic threshold in the mid-1970s when the ink on the Novus Ordo Missae was just beginning to dry. In fact, I was reading a news story just yesterday of the Methodist church I might have gone to a dozen times in my youth, they're debating the whole "Global Methodist" thing, whether to stick with the UMC or leave for the new denomination. I know of at least two people there who have practicing gay family members (I'm related to one of them), so I imagine there's a lot of soul-searching going on. The pastor alluded to as much.
According to one article, the drive for the EF is mostly taking place among a tiny minority of the Catholic World, and found in the U.S., Britain, and France. At the same time, these countries with others face combinations of late capitalism and population aging. Late capitalism refers to the rise of decadence, middle class conveniences, and political correctness driven by increasing levels of debt needed to support spending.
This might explain why the EF drive is dominant in these few places: tired of rock bands, gay rights, forced diversity, political correctness, etc., they are imagining a past that had Latin, the EF, the Baltimore Catechism, translations of the Bible in Shakespearean English, magnificent and old cathedrals, opulent and grand Masses, the Gregorian chant, and people behaving like civilized Europeans from the early twentieth century or earlier.
This reminds me of what then-Cardinal Ratzinger said in a radio interview in 1969:
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 1:49:52 GMT
I'm younger than you and do not remember the TLM at all. The earliest Mass form I remember was the transitional Mass rite that was used between the TLM and the earliest OF Mass (then it was called the Mass of Pope Paul VI). I was very young (toddler/ pre-K) during the transitional form years, but I remember there was still a high altar and the priest faced away from the people, and that the readings were in English and I believe communion was done standing up in a line, not kneeling at a rail. A few years later I made my first Holy Communion and was given a "children's missal" as a gift, which still showed the priest facing ad orientem as it had obviously been written and printed before the change to full OF. When I go to TLMs they always have a good crowd, a percentage of people are old enough to actually remember TLM, but no more than 20 to 25 percent. The vast majority are people my age and younger. There are lots of people under 40 and many families with children who drive a distance to seek out this type of Mass. One of my friends, who is about 50 with teen kids and isn't terribly trad in her lifestyle, now drives about an hour most Sundays to TLM with her young teen kids who also prefer TLM. Her daughter is really excited about learning Latin at her new high school, and none of them like contemporary Mass music at all. Like I said these are normal folks who aren't living any kind of trad lifestyle, they just have a preference for old skool Mass that none of them are old enough to recall firsthand - which also means they don't have all the baggage attached to it that some 75-year-old who associates it with mean nuns might have.
I recall one old university official, who is also Jesuit and a scientist, mention in a talk about the core curriculum, that part of the university education of all students involved studying the classics. Later, he began to say lines from the Aeneid in Latin from memory, and so on. Similar took place for an old chemistry professor who, in one lecture, referred to Greek and Roman mythology, and found puzzled looks from students strange.
I won't be surprised if these are part of learning Latin (and even Greek) in school, and that implies that the EF can only thrive if Latin is an integral part of the lives of a community.
But there's another dimension to consider: among some traditional Catholics who don't care for Latin, the EF, the Baltimore Catechism, old translations of the Bible, and anything before Vatican II, that means the novena, the rosary, morning, noon, after, evening, and night prayers, the pasyon, feast days that have been celebrated for hundreds of years, communal practices that are just as old and that combine Christian with ancient practices, dressing modestly not only at Mass but everywhere, and no cares not only for contemporary Mass music but even for contemporary music, as well as for the latest movies, TV shows, and sport events, not to mention the Internet and social media except for business.
The implication is that once sees something as "old skool," then it will essentially be that: token views of the past that may one day be forgotten and replaced by something else.
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 2:01:59 GMT
My mother gave me her own Missal as a gift as well as a new one. Her one was her mother's before her and is nearing a century old. It was an unusual thing to give to a child but I was a very bookish child and was fascinated with it. My father's oldest Missal (one of many) is pre-Vatican Two and has Latin and English in it.
The reason why I found out about English translations of the EF is because I found them in a Missal that was given to my mother by close family friends when she turned 18.
Interestingly enough, I asked the folks years ago about the EF (after attending a university talk about changes being made to the OF), and they said they had difficulty appreciating it because they couldn't hear the priest, so they ended up like the others just staring at the altar or praying a novena or the rosary. In contrast, they like the OF because it allows them to respond, makes them feel that the congregation is a community, and that it's easier to follow, especially in the vernacular, and makes more sense.
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 2:03:40 GMT
(1) Some remain with the TLM, some don't. I don't have figures, but I do know that a family at our parish has several adult children, married, who have children of their own, and bring them to the TLM. All told, that's probably 25-30 souls. They are by no means the only family of their kind. You don't need a lot of families to grow a TLM community significantly. (2) Well, something drove Pope Francis to promulgate TC, to put a "rush" on it --- no customary vacatio legis --- right before he underwent anesthesia (which doesn't agree with him) for a dangerous operation. ( All body cavity operations when you're in your 80s are "dangerous", especially when you're obese with only one good lung.) He himself admits that the TLM movement is growing. Best spin you could put on it, he wanted to preserve the TLM for some folks (FSSP et al) and feared that his successor would place even more restrictions (or a total ban) than he did. But that's really a stretch. (3) You refer to people who are outside the Church. The Holy Ghost is reliable within the Church, outside the Church, that's another story. It is a great mystery how (or even if) the Holy Ghost can dispense enough grace to bring people ostensibly to Christ, yet not enough to "close the deal" and bring them into the one true Church. There may be "spirits" at work that are something else. All we hear today is "we are Church" and "we are walking together in a synodal Church", well, all right, then, doesn't that mean that those who find something they are looking for in the TLM, which existed in its basic form for well over a millennium within the Church, may be led by the Holy Ghost as well? TLM adherents are "Church" too. Yes, TLM adherents are part of the Church, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily right, or that the Holy Spirit is guiding them does it? There have been many, many clergy and lay persons who were part of the Church and not led by the Holy Spirit in their actions. To think that the Holy Spirit is leading people to the TLM, but not believe that the Holy Spirit led the Church through VII is troublesome. I could care less if people choose to go to EF or the OF Mass. Most people could care less either. What gets tiresome is the constant whining, the constant "we are better", the constant division created by a minority group within the Church. Not much different than the minority groups causing division within our own country. When Christ said to believe like a child, he didn't say act like a child. It is clear by the number of posts created by you which try to justify your position, or show support for your position that you need validation of your beliefs. That isn't necessarily the Holy Spirit guiding you along.
The reference to the Pentecost and the Holy Spirit giving the apostles the gift of speaking in tongues also helps.
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 2:05:14 GMT
It would be interesting to know what proportion of these younger ‘TLM’ adherents organically developed their attachment through historical interest, familial connection, or some chance encounter vs being radicalized or duped online or in-person to believe the ‘TLM’ is the ‘real’ mass or somehow superior to the current Roman Missal. We see many religious leaders/clerics/influencers making such nonsensical claims both online and in-person. We just saw one such foolish assertion made by the subject of the piece in the TLM in Africa post. The church has a clear mind on the subject and that is to say the current Roman Missal is of the most advantage to the lay faithful, secular clerics, and the vast majority of religious in the Latin Rite. Many of the proponents of this grow the ‘TLM’ movement consistently exploit a clearly narrow exception to advance their dilettante aesthetic preferences, liturgical fetishes, and fractious ideologies. They do so in clear contradiction to the mind of the church. Much of the noise is about ‘access’ to the ‘TLM’ but even a cursory survey of those deeply invested in the movement makes it clear the goal is the restoration of the ‘TLM’ as a panacea to the woes of the church and society.
I get this feeling that some of them are being told that Vatican II and Pope Francis are questionable, that one should only refer to the Baltimore Catechism, that only old translations of the Bible should be used, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2023 3:44:25 GMT
Honestly, some of the Masses I have attended in New Zealand have contained such horrific liturgical abuse I have been almost on the verge of tears (and I rarely shed tears), due to the disrespect Our Lord is shown. Last Christmas (Christmas is the only day of the year my parents go to Mass), my parents insisted on us going to Mass at a church I avoid at all costs due to the extreme liturgical abuse that goes on there. The priests laze around in the church pews during Mass, the readings are omitted, balloons are let off around the altar during the Preface, gaudy cheap Christmas decorations flood the altar. Awful. I felt physically sick afterwards that Catholic priests would allow a liturgy to be celebrated that way.
For the past 18 months I have mostly attended a very traditional Novus ordo parish. I feel much more at home here. When the new bishop of the neighbouring diocese reestablishes the TLM I will try to drive up there once a month if possible. Not every Sunday as it will be a 5 hour round trip.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 30, 2023 4:30:12 GMT
(1) Some remain with the TLM, some don't. I don't have figures, but I do know that a family at our parish has several adult children, married, who have children of their own, and bring them to the TLM. All told, that's probably 25-30 souls. They are by no means the only family of their kind. You don't need a lot of families to grow a TLM community significantly. (2) Well, something drove Pope Francis to promulgate TC, to put a "rush" on it --- no customary vacatio legis --- right before he underwent anesthesia (which doesn't agree with him) for a dangerous operation. ( All body cavity operations when you're in your 80s are "dangerous", especially when you're obese with only one good lung.) He himself admits that the TLM movement is growing. Best spin you could put on it, he wanted to preserve the TLM for some folks (FSSP et al) and feared that his successor would place even more restrictions (or a total ban) than he did. But that's really a stretch. (3) You refer to people who are outside the Church. The Holy Ghost is reliable within the Church, outside the Church, that's another story. It is a great mystery how (or even if) the Holy Ghost can dispense enough grace to bring people ostensibly to Christ, yet not enough to "close the deal" and bring them into the one true Church. There may be "spirits" at work that are something else. All we hear today is "we are Church" and "we are walking together in a synodal Church", well, all right, then, doesn't that mean that those who find something they are looking for in the TLM, which existed in its basic form for well over a millennium within the Church, may be led by the Holy Ghost as well? TLM adherents are "Church" too. Yes, TLM adherents are part of the Church, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily right, or that the Holy Spirit is guiding them does it? There have been many, many clergy and lay persons who were part of the Church and not led by the Holy Spirit in their actions. To think that the Holy Spirit is leading people to the TLM, but not believe that the Holy Spirit led the Church through VII is troublesome. I could care less if people choose to go to EF or the OF Mass. Most people could care less either. What gets tiresome is the constant whining, the constant "we are better", the constant division created by a minority group within the Church. Not much different than the minority groups causing division within our own country. When Christ said to believe like a child, he didn't say act like a child. It is clear by the number of posts created by you which try to justify your position, or show support for your position that you need validation of your beliefs. That isn't necessarily the Holy Spirit guiding you along. Last point first, no, I do not post as I do because I need "validation". I defend the TLM because it needs defending in the face of opposition to it, and to join my voice to the many. No, the people in the Church who dissent from Humanae vitae, and worse, go against it in their marital lives, sauntering up to communion every Sunday (not sure what they do about confession), that's not the Holy Spirit (I'll use your terminology here). The homosexuals who actively practice sodomy and receive, likewise, the divorced and invalidly "remarried" with no annulment and not exactly living in Josephite marriages, no, whatever "spirit" is guiding them, it isn't a holy one. I am willing to accept that the Holy Spirit "led the Church through Vatican II", as you put it. I know of nothing in V2 that diametrically contradicts anything that came before it, development of doctrine, yes, change, no. The directives in Sacrosanctum concilium were disciplinary and pastoral, not doctrinal. I am better than no person on this earth, and I've only known of one traditional Catholic in my life (it kind of rubbed off on her son too) who thought that way. They weren't well-liked people.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 30, 2023 4:40:57 GMT
(1) Some remain with the TLM, some don't. I don't have figures, but I do know that a family at our parish has several adult children, married, who have children of their own, and bring them to the TLM. All told, that's probably 25-30 souls. They are by no means the only family of their kind. You don't need a lot of families to grow a TLM community significantly. (2) Well, something drove Pope Francis to promulgate TC, to put a "rush" on it --- no customary vacatio legis --- right before he underwent anesthesia (which doesn't agree with him) for a dangerous operation. ( All body cavity operations when you're in your 80s are "dangerous", especially when you're obese with only one good lung.) He himself admits that the TLM movement is growing. Best spin you could put on it, he wanted to preserve the TLM for some folks (FSSP et al) and feared that his successor would place even more restrictions (or a total ban) than he did. But that's really a stretch. (3) You refer to people who are outside the Church. The Holy Ghost is reliable within the Church, outside the Church, that's another story. It is a great mystery how (or even if) the Holy Ghost can dispense enough grace to bring people ostensibly to Christ, yet not enough to "close the deal" and bring them into the one true Church. There may be "spirits" at work that are something else. All we hear today is "we are Church" and "we are walking together in a synodal Church", well, all right, then, doesn't that mean that those who find something they are looking for in the TLM, which existed in its basic form for well over a millennium within the Church, may be led by the Holy Ghost as well? TLM adherents are "Church" too. In regards to the vacatio legis it seems pretty simple given that the customary timeline for legislation going into force is 1) 3 months for universal law 2) 1 month for particular law 3) or the date listed in the legislation itself. TC proclaimed the date in its text. So we can clearly see custom WAS followed. As to the ‘rush’ perhaps it was the feedback of the worldwide survey of bishops indicating that “[the] opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.” It seems this alone would be a sufficient reason to move and address the situation swiftly. One need not speculate as to ulterior motives or conspiracies to come up with a reasonable motivation. We consistently see nearly all aspects of this matter misrepresented as a means to sow doubt among the faithful and undermine the legitimacy of church leaders who do not conform to the radical conservative ideologies of some persons within the ‘TLM’ movement. From TC: Everything that I have declared in this Apostolic Letter in the form of Motu Proprio, I order to be observed in all its parts, anything else to the contrary notwithstanding, even if worthy of particular mention, and I establish that it be promulgated by way of publication in “L’Osservatore Romano”, entering immediately in force and, subsequently, that it be published in the official Commentary of the Holy See, Acta Apostolicae Sedis.
Given at Rome, at Saint John Lateran, on 16 July 2021, the liturgical Memorial of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, in the ninth year of Our Pontificate.Pope Francis directed TC to go into effect immediately. The fact that the date was on the document --- that's something that's always done, Rome doesn't issue undated documents --- does not mean that there was a vacatio legis. That's not what a vacatio legis is. Again, Francis's fear that he wouldn't survive the operation, and that his directives then wouldn't go into effect if there were a vacatio legis of a month or more, is so obvious that it hardly needs to be stated. I've heard pro and con regarding the survey. For the bishops where the TLM exists and flourishes to have had such issues, they are generally dispensing from some or most of the provisions of TC.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 30, 2023 7:10:22 GMT
It would be interesting to know what proportion of these younger ‘TLM’ adherents organically developed their attachment through historical interest, familial connection, or some chance encounter vs being radicalized or duped online or in-person to believe the ‘TLM’ is the ‘real’ mass or somehow superior to the current Roman Missal. We see many religious leaders/clerics/influencers making such nonsensical claims both online and in-person. We just saw one such foolish assertion made by the subject of the piece in the TLM in Africa post. The church has a clear mind on the subject and that is to say the current Roman Missal is of the most advantage to the lay faithful, secular clerics, and the vast majority of religious in the Latin Rite. Many of the proponents of this grow the ‘TLM’ movement consistently exploit a clearly narrow exception to advance their dilettante aesthetic preferences, liturgical fetishes, and fractious ideologies. They do so in clear contradiction to the mind of the church. Much of the noise is about ‘access’ to the ‘TLM’ but even a cursory survey of those deeply invested in the movement makes it clear the goal is the restoration of the ‘TLM’ as a panacea to the woes of the church and society.
I get this feeling that some of them are being told that Vatican II and Pope Francis are questionable, that one should only refer to the Baltimore Catechism, that only old translations of the Bible should be used, etc.
I've read the entire Baltimore Catechism #2 and #3, and so far as I can tell, aside from purely disciplinary changes (fast and abstinence, etc.), there is nothing in it that Vatican II contradicts in any way. As to themes and topics for which the CCC is well-known, they were "there", at least in germ form, in the BC. For instance, the BC places very severe restrictions on capital punishment, stating that it is only to be used as an absolute last resort when there is no other way (and the Church in recent years has rightly noted that, in today's world, there are always other ways, ergo there is no need for CP), and the recurring theme of the "dignity of the human person" subsists in the Fifth Commandment, "thou shalt not kill", as well as in the various corporal works of mercy. The manifold assaults on the dignity of the human person in the 20th century --- genocide, legally enabled abortion, slavery, systemic racism, human trafficking, the drug trade, pornography, abuse within families, treating man as simply a commodity to be valued only insofar as he can produce economically (this applies both to communism and to unbridled capitalism), treating women as only having worth related to their beauty, the list goes on --- make an emphasis upon the intrinsic worth and dignity of the human person the order of the day. Nowhere does the BC contradict this.
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