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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 18, 2023 17:14:47 GMT
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Post by ralfy on Jul 19, 2023 4:34:22 GMT
The purpose was not to draw people away from the EF but to ensure exemptions for those who need it, following what Pope Benedict XVI intended.
Also, connecting that with Pope Francis inviting the "piss Christ" artist is absurd. And the references to Cardinals Pell and Muller sound weird.
Finally, the belief that the EF is the only thing that's part of tradition or defines it is illogical.
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Post by ratioetfides on Jul 29, 2023 18:19:07 GMT
The author of the Rorate post appears to be incredibly biased, confused, and ill-informed as do so many of these self appointed church experts.
The author must be horribly disappointed by many a Cistercian or Carthusian foundation. Do they not believe these are legitimate sign posts of Catholic tradition?
The one who seems angry is the author not the Bishop of Rome. They have misconstrued and misrepresented the entirety of TC to meet their own presupposed narrative.
One thing the author does seem to get right is that TC and the ensuing determinations have in fact have ‘reemphasized the connection between the law of prayer and the law of faith.’ And it has done so in the context of the current Roman Missal. Those asserting the opposite do so in direct contradiction to the mind of the church.
The early effects of TC seem to be largely successful in consolidating the wants of the church and the needs of the faithful into ecclesial communion and harmony. Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting.
TC seems to strike a balance between providing harmony to the faithful while permitting a narrow exception for the few.
It is worth keeping in mind that many persons in this ‘TLM’ movement will never be happy until the principle celebration at every parish and every institution of the Latin Rite is the ‘TLM.’ The ‘TLM’ could be established as the principle celebration in their proper parish and it would still not be enough.
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Post by theguvnor on Jul 29, 2023 20:32:38 GMT
The creator of "Piss Christ" is a Catholic and has made that plain repeatedly. Here was one comment he made on the work, "What it symbolizes is the way Christ died: the blood came out of him but so did the piss and the shit. Maybe if Piss Christ upsets you, it's because it gives some sense of what the crucifixion actually was like...I was born and raised a Catholic and I've been a Christian all my life".
I take his point, Crucifixion is a hideously vile process. It's rooted in the most horrible aspects of humanities behaviour. Serrano is trying you to get you to focus on the humilation and degradation such a process involved. If he shocks you I'd say great, because the Crucifixion is shocking and monstrous.
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Post by ratioetfides on Jul 29, 2023 21:01:21 GMT
The author is clearly trying to weaponize a piece of art from 1987, which has been addressed time and time again, as shock value propaganda to sow distrust in the Bishop of Rome.
“If ‘Piss Christ’ disturbs you, maybe you should think about what it symbolizes. And what it symbolizes is a very horrific and painful and tragic and inhuman way for a human being to die. And that’s how they crucified Christ,” he [Andres Serrano] said.
Bishop Paul Tighe, the No. 2 in the Vatican’s culture and education ministry, said the inclusion of even provocative artists was evidence of the Vatican’s desire to enter into dialogue with contemporary culture. “We’re ready for a conversation,” Tighe said. “We want to hear and talk with, meet with, dialog with artists, because we think artists have perspectives and ways of seeing the world that we need to take account of.”
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 29, 2023 23:25:50 GMT
The author of the Rorate post appears to be incredibly biased, confused, and ill-informed as do so many of these self appointed church experts. The author must be horribly disappointed by many a Cistercian or Carthusian foundation. Do they not believe these are legitimate sign posts of Catholic tradition? The one who seems angry is the author not the Bishop of Rome. They have misconstrued and misrepresented the entirety of TC to meet their own presupposed narrative. One thing the author does seem to get right is that TC and the ensuing determinations have in fact have ‘reemphasized the connection between the law of prayer and the law of faith.’ And it has done so in the context of the current Roman Missal. Those asserting the opposite do so in direct contradiction to the mind of the church. The early effects of TC seem to be largely successful in consolidating the wants of the church and the needs of the faithful into ecclesial communion and harmony. Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting. TC seems to strike a balance between providing harmony to the faithful while permitting a narrow exception for the few. It is worth keeping in mind that many persons in this ‘TLM’ movement will never be happy until the principle celebration at every parish and every institution of the Latin Rite is the ‘TLM.’ The ‘TLM’ could be established as the principle celebration in their proper parish and it would still not be enough. I really do not disagree with a whole lot of what you say here, and it is through such posts that reasoned discussion can take place. However, I'm a little confused by the comment: Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting.What is this "different path in a different setting"? As regards your last paragraph, I can only say that if the faithful were to rise up en bloc, not the relatively few now, but the vast majority, and prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, I wouldn't be crying out to them and saying "no! - you mustn't be that way! - please, don't abandon the Novus Ordo!". But that's not going to happen. I could go to no other Mass but the TLM the rest of my life, and not miss the Novus Ordo one little bit, but everyone is not me.
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 1:20:39 GMT
The author of the Rorate post appears to be incredibly biased, confused, and ill-informed as do so many of these self appointed church experts. The author must be horribly disappointed by many a Cistercian or Carthusian foundation. Do they not believe these are legitimate sign posts of Catholic tradition? The one who seems angry is the author not the Bishop of Rome. They have misconstrued and misrepresented the entirety of TC to meet their own presupposed narrative. One thing the author does seem to get right is that TC and the ensuing determinations have in fact have ‘reemphasized the connection between the law of prayer and the law of faith.’ And it has done so in the context of the current Roman Missal. Those asserting the opposite do so in direct contradiction to the mind of the church. The early effects of TC seem to be largely successful in consolidating the wants of the church and the needs of the faithful into ecclesial communion and harmony. Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting. TC seems to strike a balance between providing harmony to the faithful while permitting a narrow exception for the few. It is worth keeping in mind that many persons in this ‘TLM’ movement will never be happy until the principle celebration at every parish and every institution of the Latin Rite is the ‘TLM.’ The ‘TLM’ could be established as the principle celebration in their proper parish and it would still not be enough. I really do not disagree with a whole lot of what you say here, and it is through such posts that reasoned discussion can take place. However, I'm a little confused by the comment: Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting.What is this "different path in a different setting"? As regards your last paragraph, I can only say that if the faithful were to rise up en bloc, not the relatively few now, but the vast majority, and prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, I wouldn't be crying out to them and saying "no! - you mustn't be that way! - please, don't abandon the Novus Ordo!". But that's not going to happen. I could go to no other Mass but the TLM the rest of my life, and not miss the Novus Ordo one little bit, but everyone is not me.
About your first paragraph, when did you realize that the article is biased, etc.? Before you shared the article or only now?
Also, does your agreement with the negative points about this article ("I really do not disagree with a whole lot of what you say here") contradict the points in your last paragraph (not missing the OF "one little bit")? That is, are your reasons driven by the same problems as the writer?
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Post by farronwolf on Jul 30, 2023 1:49:14 GMT
The author of the Rorate post appears to be incredibly biased, confused, and ill-informed as do so many of these self appointed church experts. The author must be horribly disappointed by many a Cistercian or Carthusian foundation. Do they not believe these are legitimate sign posts of Catholic tradition? The one who seems angry is the author not the Bishop of Rome. They have misconstrued and misrepresented the entirety of TC to meet their own presupposed narrative. One thing the author does seem to get right is that TC and the ensuing determinations have in fact have ‘reemphasized the connection between the law of prayer and the law of faith.’ And it has done so in the context of the current Roman Missal. Those asserting the opposite do so in direct contradiction to the mind of the church. The early effects of TC seem to be largely successful in consolidating the wants of the church and the needs of the faithful into ecclesial communion and harmony. Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting. TC seems to strike a balance between providing harmony to the faithful while permitting a narrow exception for the few. It is worth keeping in mind that many persons in this ‘TLM’ movement will never be happy until the principle celebration at every parish and every institution of the Latin Rite is the ‘TLM.’ The ‘TLM’ could be established as the principle celebration in their proper parish and it would still not be enough. I really do not disagree with a whole lot of what you say here, and it is through such posts that reasoned discussion can take place. However, I'm a little confused by the comment: Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting.What is this "different path in a different setting"? As regards your last paragraph, I can only say that if the faithful were to rise up en bloc, not the relatively few now, but the vast majority, and prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, I wouldn't be crying out to them and saying "no! - you mustn't be that way! - please, don't abandon the Novus Ordo!". But that's not going to happen. I could go to no other Mass but the TLM the rest of my life, and not miss the Novus Ordo one little bit, but everyone is not me. If you have time, tell me what your opinion of this NO Mass is. fb.watch/m5uKSNGZsH/
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Post by ralfy on Jul 30, 2023 2:06:57 GMT
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 30, 2023 3:53:05 GMT
I really do not disagree with a whole lot of what you say here, and it is through such posts that reasoned discussion can take place. However, I'm a little confused by the comment: Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting.What is this "different path in a different setting"? As regards your last paragraph, I can only say that if the faithful were to rise up en bloc, not the relatively few now, but the vast majority, and prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, I wouldn't be crying out to them and saying "no! - you mustn't be that way! - please, don't abandon the Novus Ordo!". But that's not going to happen. I could go to no other Mass but the TLM the rest of my life, and not miss the Novus Ordo one little bit, but everyone is not me. If you have time, tell me what your opinion of this NO Mass is. fb.watch/m5uKSNGZsH/It's all right, looks to be a fairly basic, unadorned, ad orientem Novus Ordo to me, undeniably reverent. If it were all I had to attend, I'd have no real issue with it. But I still much prefer the TLM.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 30, 2023 3:56:24 GMT
Very nice. I was an acolyte and lector many times at a similar Mass at the Basilica Shrine in DC. I do not by any means disdain the OF when it is offered in this fashion, but when you compare it side-by-side with the EF, the differences are very evident. And to many people, that matters.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 30, 2023 4:05:00 GMT
I really do not disagree with a whole lot of what you say here, and it is through such posts that reasoned discussion can take place. However, I'm a little confused by the comment: Those few unable or unwilling to join into this offered mode of communion and harmony are permitted to pursue a different path in a different setting.What is this "different path in a different setting"? As regards your last paragraph, I can only say that if the faithful were to rise up en bloc, not the relatively few now, but the vast majority, and prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, I wouldn't be crying out to them and saying "no! - you mustn't be that way! - please, don't abandon the Novus Ordo!". But that's not going to happen. I could go to no other Mass but the TLM the rest of my life, and not miss the Novus Ordo one little bit, but everyone is not me.
About your first paragraph, when did you realize that the article is biased, etc.? Before you shared the article or only now?
Also, does your agreement with the negative points about this article ("I really do not disagree with a whole lot of what you say here") contradict the points in your last paragraph (not missing the OF "one little bit")? That is, are your reasons driven by the same problems as the writer?
All such articles are "biased", as are one-sided defenses of the Novus Ordo. I wouldn't say "horribly". The writer has his ideas, and I have mine. He might push a little further than I would, but it's his article, not mine. I see no contradiction. I would go to the TLM exclusively if I could. My temporal circumstances have changed in recent months due to family caregiving duties and distance. I do well to get to a reverent Novus Ordo, let alone a TLM. If those circumstances should change, I shall once again go to the TLM, which I am told has grown in recent months while I've been absent. Our good bishop has dispensed from some of the strictures of TC.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 30, 2023 4:14:36 GMT
The creator of "Piss Christ" is a Catholic and has made that plain repeatedly. Here was one comment he made on the work, "What it symbolizes is the way Christ died: the blood came out of him but so did the piss and the shit. Maybe if Piss Christ upsets you, it's because it gives some sense of what the crucifixion actually was like...I was born and raised a Catholic and I've been a Christian all my life". I take his point, Crucifixion is a hideously vile process. It's rooted in the most horrible aspects of humanities behaviour. Serrano is trying you to get you to focus on the humilation and degradation such a process involved. If he shocks you I'd say great, because the Crucifixion is shocking and monstrous. When people die, they often urinate and defecate. Other things sometimes happen as well. Standard depictions of Our Lord's crucifixion are extremely sanitized, and the loincloth is there for modesty reasons. The alternative would scandalize, not edify. A crucifix with bodily excretions running down it, hoisted above the altar in a Catholic church, would drive away more people than whispered Latin, liturgical silence, and reiteration of traditional Catholic morality on awkward issues ever could. I cannot imagine a Christian culture anywhere in the world, where an image of Jesus, or even a bare cross (as is the preference of most Protestants), submerged in urine, would be acceptable either to Christians, or to any people who have the smallest modicum of respect for Jesus. Muslims revere Christ (just not as Lord and God), and Hindus and Buddhists view him very favorably. Think of it this way, would you be okay with a picture of your own mother submerged in piss? I didn't think so. And an image of Muhammad, or the word "Allah" in Arabic script (الله), treated in the same fashion? Just close your eyes and try to imagine what the reaction to that would be. Two words: Charlie Hebdo. Not that all Muslims would react that way, but it would only take one or a few. It would be the rare, rare Muslim who would just smile and say "that's okay, because religious freedom and artistic expression, you know". Whatever the subjective motivations of the "Piss Christ" creator might be, surely he can understand that his work is offensive, gravely so, to anyone who has any regard whatsoever for the man Jesus. He may well understand that and doesn't care. That's his call.
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Post by ralfy on Jul 31, 2023 1:41:27 GMT
Very nice. I was an acolyte and lector many times at a similar Mass at the Basilica Shrine in DC. I do not by any means disdain the OF when it is offered in this fashion, but when you compare it side-by-side with the EF, the differences are very evident. And to many people, that matters.
Good grief. It's as if the Mass is some sort of performance.
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Post by tisbearself on Jul 31, 2023 4:24:53 GMT
Why do all y'all bother to argue so much over this issue?
Rome doesn't care if anyone in the cheap seats likes or doesn't like the TLM. Rome does what Rome wants for Rome's own reasons.
Cheap Seats Group A, those who don't like the TLM, are in no danger of having their OF taken away.
Cheap Seats Group B, those who do like the TLM, have had 2+ years to decide/ strategize what they each personally will do if it should become "unavailable".
Neither Group A nor Group B cares what the other group thinks, nor is this an issue on which we all must urgently reach consensus to avoid war or clarify a core doctrinal teaching.
I get that some people think it's fun or important to argue, but the digital hot air wasted over this issue is just silly.
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