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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 31, 2023 15:40:57 GMT
Why do all y'all bother to argue so much over this issue? Rome doesn't care if anyone in the cheap seats likes or doesn't like the TLM. Rome does what Rome wants for Rome's own reasons. Cheap Seats Group A, those who don't like the TLM, are in no danger of having their OF taken away. Cheap Seats Group B, those who do like the TLM, have had 2+ years to decide/ strategize what they each personally will do if it should become "unavailable". Neither Group A nor Group B cares what the other group thinks, nor is this an issue on which we all must urgently reach consensus to avoid war or clarify a core doctrinal teaching. I get that some people think it's fun or important to argue, but the digital hot air wasted over this issue is just silly. Short answer, to raise consciousness, to defend the TLM from attacks (and TC was one such attack), and to draw as many people as possible to the TLM so that demand for it will grow. I have to think that Rome most certainly does care whether people like the TLM or not, because she'd prefer we didn't, she'd prefer that we all just shut up, docilely go to the Novus Ordo, and then the TLM could quietly die. So we have to keep the pressure on (Saul Alinsky explains why this is so important). The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak. Another short answer, TLM adherents seek to do everything they possibly can to stall off, and to reduce to its most minimal impact, the TLM becoming "unavailable" here, there, or throughout the whole Church. There is always the SSPX, and, as long as Rome doesn't suppress them, the FSSP. Many bishops are also dispensing from certain provisions of TC. There are others who do not wish the TLM to exist, or at their most generous, would allow it for a minuscule slice of the faithful who, for some bizarre reason, use Latin as their daily language in all facets of their lives (and I think we all know that no such community exists, or has ever existed outside of early-medieval Latium), something the Church never required and does not require now. Others are simply animated by the belief that all Catholics should conform their thinking to whatever the present Holy Father and his acolytes say, even in disciplinary or pastoral matters where doctrine or dogma is not concerned, kind of like a Jesuit vow of personal obedience to the HF extended to the entire Church. Thus, they seek to refute those who do defend the TLM. Also, all of this has a "Streisand effect", people who might otherwise have not given it much thought, look at the TLM, look at its supporters, and say "maybe they're right".
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Post by farronwolf on Jul 31, 2023 17:06:05 GMT
Also, all of this has a "Streisand effect", people who might otherwise have not given it much thought, look at the TLM, look at its supporters, and say "maybe they're right". Or maybe it has the exact opposite of the "Streisand effect" and people get tired of hearing over and over a segment of the Church continually whining about what the Church should do and ignore that group all together. Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets thrown away for the simple reason that the machine is more important that any one component of it.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 31, 2023 17:45:02 GMT
Also, all of this has a "Streisand effect", people who might otherwise have not given it much thought, look at the TLM, look at its supporters, and say "maybe they're right". Or maybe it has the exact opposite of the "Streisand effect" and people get tired of hearing over and over a segment of the Church continually whining about what the Church should do and ignore that group all together. Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets thrown away for the simple reason that the machine is more important that any one component of it. It could have both effects. Those who don't want to hear it, can just ignore it. Meanwhile, those who do care to listen to the arguments, and to check out the TLM if they haven't already done so, may come to prefer the TLM themselves. To use an imperfect secular analogy, no candidate who stands for office expects that they will get each and every person to vote for them. They just need enough votes to win, a majority or plurality as the case may be. And certain voting blocs, while perhaps small, can end up holding all the cards --- "I can't win without Group X", or in a parliamentary system, a minor party with only a few seats can determine which major party gets to form a government, by forming a coalition with this party or that, where no party has a majority. Or they can deadlock things by refusing to support either side, unless they get concessions. And a schism would have a very bad look, a fortiori where those schismatics are media-savvy, online-savvy, and have stances that make sense to many, a fortiori when the Church is up to its ears in credibility problems ("just trust us, we know what's best, docility is holiness" doesn't cut it when there are endless accounts of abusive priests enabled by an institutional code of silence). Protestants would look at such a situation and say "why don't you just leave those people alone, and let them worship as they wish?".
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Post by ralfy on Aug 1, 2023 3:28:18 GMT
I find it weird that the faithful are compared to viewers looking for cheap seats; the same goes to the belief that the Church does what it wants and for its own reasons, and that the OF belongs to some but not to others.
According to Catholics, the faithful are part of the Church, and the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. According to Pope Benedict XVI, there is no difference between the OF and the EF because they are one and the same rite. The only reason why he allowed the EF is because some grew up with it and for valid reasons can't celebrate the OF.
TC fulfills that.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 1, 2023 9:41:57 GMT
Why do all y'all bother to argue so much over this issue? Rome doesn't care if anyone in the cheap seats likes or doesn't like the TLM. Rome does what Rome wants for Rome's own reasons. Cheap Seats Group A, those who don't like the TLM, are in no danger of having their OF taken away. Cheap Seats Group B, those who do like the TLM, have had 2+ years to decide/ strategize what they each personally will do if it should become "unavailable". Neither Group A nor Group B cares what the other group thinks, nor is this an issue on which we all must urgently reach consensus to avoid war or clarify a core doctrinal teaching. I get that some people think it's fun or important to argue, but the digital hot air wasted over this issue is just silly. Short answer, to raise consciousness, to defend the TLM from attacks (and TC was one such attack), and to draw as many people as possible to the TLM so that demand for it will grow. I have to think that Rome most certainly does care whether people like the TLM or not, because she'd prefer we didn't, she'd prefer that we all just shut up, docilely go to the Novus Ordo, and then the TLM could quietly die. So we have to keep the pressure on (Saul Alinsky explains why this is so important). The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak. Another short answer, TLM adherents seek to do everything they possibly can to stall off, and to reduce to its most minimal impact, the TLM becoming "unavailable" here, there, or throughout the whole Church. There is always the SSPX, and, as long as Rome doesn't suppress them, the FSSP. Many bishops are also dispensing from certain provisions of TC. There are others who do not wish the TLM to exist, or at their most generous, would allow it for a minuscule slice of the faithful who, for some bizarre reason, use Latin as their daily language in all facets of their lives (and I think we all know that no such community exists, or has ever existed outside of early-medieval Latium), something the Church never required and does not require now. Others are simply animated by the belief that all Catholics should conform their thinking to whatever the present Holy Father and his acolytes say, even in disciplinary or pastoral matters where doctrine or dogma is not concerned, kind of like a Jesuit vow of personal obedience to the HF extended to the entire Church. Thus, they seek to refute those who do defend the TLM. Also, all of this has a "Streisand effect", people who might otherwise have not given it much thought, look at the TLM, look at its supporters, and say "maybe they're right". I personally am not concerned about the opinions or the "attacks" of others, or refuting such stuff, when choosing a Mass rite to attend on any given day. Most of that is either just one person's opinion, or in some cases rises to the level of un-Christian criticism or unhealthy obsession with what other Catholics are doing. I've been to all kinds of Masses and will probably continue to attend a variety. At the same time I'm not really into promoting any particular form or rite of Mass. A variety can, should, and do exist to meet different preferences and needs among the billions of people attending.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 1, 2023 16:09:08 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 1, 2023 16:50:04 GMT
It's the Reporter. If there's an isolated group of "a few dozen" progressives having "Mass" in the gas station, they'll find it and do a feature story on it. Edited to add, here's the parish they were complaining about. It has English language Mass almost every day of the week. It has Latin only on a couple days. There are tons of non-Latin OFs to attend here. If they want a Henri Nouwen book they can have mine (I got it off the giveaway table at church), or buy it off Amazon like a normal American. saintecc.org/
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 1, 2023 17:49:13 GMT
It's the Reporter. If there's an isolated group of "a few dozen" progressives having "Mass" in the gas station, they'll find it and do a feature story on it. Edited to add, here's the parish they were complaining about. It has English language Mass almost every day of the week. It has Latin only on a couple days. There are tons of non-Latin OFs to attend here. If they want a Henri Nouwen book they can have mine (I got it off the giveaway table at church), or buy it off Amazon like a normal American. saintecc.org/It's made me want to bop on over to Boone one of these days and check the place out. I used to like to vacation in Blowing Rock (basically the same place), idyllic country.
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Post by farronwolf on Aug 1, 2023 18:24:26 GMT
Some funny things went on during the pandemic, that is for certain. Burning books, really? They couldn't just remove them from the library if they were not permitted. "that while masks are allowed, they are symbolic of anti-Christian attitudes not conducive to authentic Catholic life." Really, wearing of a mask during a pandemic is anti Christian, or not Catholic? "and the transparency of financial information about the church. St. Elizabeth's parish hasn't released a financial report in five years, said James, and the parish council hasn't met since Buckler became pastor." Sounds like disfunction all around, hopefully Bishop Jugis has gotten control of his dioceses.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 1, 2023 19:26:56 GMT
This is coming from one disgruntled "parishioner" and published in the most left-biased outlet around. I don't find such views very reliable. Does she even have proof the books were burned?
Buckler is still there. It's possible the pastor before him was kind of screwy, so he was sent in to replace that. As for meetings, a lot of groups did not meet during the pandemic, even while Mass was occurring in person.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 1, 2023 21:13:24 GMT
Some funny things went on during the pandemic, that is for certain. Burning books, really? They couldn't just remove them from the library if they were not permitted. "that while masks are allowed, they are symbolic of anti-Christian attitudes not conducive to authentic Catholic life." Really, wearing of a mask during a pandemic is anti Christian, or not Catholic? "and the transparency of financial information about the church. St. Elizabeth's parish hasn't released a financial report in five years, said James, and the parish council hasn't met since Buckler became pastor." Sounds like disfunction all around, hopefully Bishop Jugis has gotten control of his dioceses. I'm not a big enthusiast of suppressing ideas, and burning the books isn't what I would have done, besides, that reeks too much of Nazism. Not a good look. If I'd been the pastor, I might have retained them, but put them on a separate shelf with a sign saying "these books contain questionable theology and may not be fully in conformity with traditional Catholic teaching, approach with caution". People of equally good will took different approaches to the pandemic, and many on the more conservative end of the spectrum took a contrarian view of the various civil restrictions and medical offerings. I didn't go that far. I took all four shots and still got a mild case of COVID a few months ago, I took Paxlovid and stayed off my feet for a couple of days, and then I was fine, it was like a mild flu with fatigue and sinus infection, and then it was over. During the height of the pandemic restrictions, it just so happened that I had an industrial-grade ventilator I'd gotten my son for cosplay, and wore it to various stores when I absolutely had to get out for groceries (my father was still living and was very ill). I wore masks as long as I judged it prudent, then abandoned them, and got the shots as soon as they were available. To this day, you still have people walking around with masks in stores (it seems to be more of an African-American thing, and I live in a heavily AA area), which personally I find crazy, but I'm not them and they're not me.
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Post by theguvnor on Aug 2, 2023 2:12:37 GMT
What was most hilarious for me during COVID was that my father caught it last year in December and got over it in a few days. He has survived cancer and open heart surgery and I thought it was likely to finish him off at the time. No, after a few days he was bouncing about. However he did have a massive mood swing the week before where he became severely depressed and looking back I wonder if the two are connected.
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Post by ralfy on Aug 2, 2023 3:32:00 GMT
The reason why the EF was imposed was to ensure uniformity. The OF was imposed to ensure the same plus practicality and more. In addition, the latter is informed not only by ancient practices but also by the Holy Spirit, which gave the apostles the gift of speaking in tongues.
If the Church is failing, as seen in decreasing Church attendance, it's because of increasing secularity and problems involving its clergy and officials that it has not been able to deal with (like sexual and financial abuse). The belief that EF will save the day, not to mention a return to the nineteenth century, doesn't make sense.
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