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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 5, 2023 1:28:28 GMT
liturgyguy.com/2017/03/28/mother-angelica-on-the-latin-mass/Nota bene: the Mass at issue here was the vernacular Novus Ordo offered ad orientem on EWTN. Somebody really needed to have a talk with Mother about that "mystical" business, as well as that outrageous final comment in the paragraph below: “During the Latin Mass you had the missal if you wanted to follow it in English. It was almost mystical. It gave you an awareness of heaven, of the awesome humility of God who manifests Himself in the guise of bread and wine. The love that He had for us, His desire to remain with us is simply awesome. You could concentrate on that love, because you weren’t distracted by your own language."
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Post by ralfy on Aug 5, 2023 3:14:40 GMT
She likely understood Latin, could even read the Bible in that language, and was raised in the EF.
By the 1940s, more no longer understood it, which is why the missal had to include a translation in the vernacular.
Meanwhile, centuries earlier, the Church was translating the Mass for people in various parts of the world who were being converted to Catholicism and could barely read and write in their own languages. One wonders if they were excluded from what is mystical simply because they did know Latin. Could the same be said for the apostles during the Last Supper where they likely used Aramaic, and for the first converts for the apostles who spoke to them and worshipped in their languages because of the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit? Or how about those who read the Scriptures in Greek?
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 5, 2023 3:52:55 GMT
She likely understood Latin, could even read the Bible in that language, and was raised in the EF. By the 1940s, more no longer understood it, which is why the missal had to include a translation in the vernacular. Meanwhile, centuries earlier, the Church was translating the Mass for people in various parts of the world who were being converted to Catholicism and could barely read and write in their own languages. One wonders if they were excluded from what is mystical simply because they did know Latin. Could the same be said for the apostles during the Last Supper where they likely used Aramaic, and for the first converts for the apostles who spoke to them and worshipped in their languages because of the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit? Or how about those who read the Scriptures in Greek? "Did", or "didn't"? |
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 5, 2023 4:49:13 GMT
Like people didn't generally use all those missals with translations in English, French, German etc from 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930 that we routinely see on eBay and Abebooks.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 5, 2023 5:59:54 GMT
Like people didn't generally use all those missals with translations in English, French, German etc from 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930 that we routinely see on eBay and Abebooks. Very possibly, before that time, such books wouldn't have been affordable to many people, and there could have even been literacy gaps in certain places and demographics. Books weren't as easy to come by as they are today, nor as relatively cheap (though some of the newer "brick" missals are kind of pricey, such as Lasance and the SSPX missals). I got my Lasance almost 30 years ago and I think it was less than $30. A resurgence of interest in traditional Catholicism has led to a plethora of books and other materials, and countless resources are available free online. (Who could have ever imagined that anyone would be able to download the Haydock Bible for free onto something called a laptop?) I can remember when all we had were VHS tapes of the TLM, sometimes of mid-20th century vintage and in black and white. Nowadays, you're just a YouTube click away from TLMs in abundance. Needless to say, people aren't going to forget that all of this ever existed. No Traditionis custodes or similar edict in the future by a Pope Tagle or a Pope Roche can put that genie back in the bottle. |
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Post by ralfy on Aug 7, 2023 10:48:22 GMT
It's a typo.
The argument stands, especially given the need for translations, and not only for the Mass but even for the Bible.
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Post by tth1 on Aug 8, 2023 16:26:12 GMT
She likely understood Latin, could even read the Bible in that language, and was raised in the EF. By the 1940s, more no longer understood it, which is why the missal had to include a translation in the vernacular. Meanwhile, centuries earlier, the Church was translating the Mass for people in various parts of the world who were being converted to Catholicism and could barely read and write in their own languages. One wonders if they were excluded from what is mystical simply because they did know Latin. Could the same be said for the apostles during the Last Supper where they likely used Aramaic, and for the first converts for the apostles who spoke to them and worshipped in their languages because of the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit? Or how about those who read the Scriptures in Greek? I really think its a moot point. It's a modern argument that doesn't apply to most of the Church's existence. Over the life of the Church the majority were illiterate so if the liturgy had then been in the vernacular they wouldn't have been able to read a Missal. Indeed, the vast majority wouldn't have been able to afford one. Whatever the language the majority of Catholics over the millennia would have had to learn their parts by rote learning and memorise them. |
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 8, 2023 16:38:31 GMT
I also doubt Mother A was that fluent in Latin. She would have learned the basic Latin she needed to know as a young person for the Mass responses, and probably little else as her family was not that devout and she attended a public high school, where she was an average student. As a sister, she spent a great deal of time engaging in social justice work in accordance with her order's goals, and primarily used the original English translation of the Jerusalem Bible for many years, switching only when it was rewritten with different language. She wasn't the scholarly type who would have been sitting around reading Latin scripture, and being female and pre-V2, she wouldn't have even learned all the Latin responses that the boys and young men who served at Mass had to know.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 8, 2023 18:50:01 GMT
I also doubt Mother A was that fluent in Latin. She would have learned the basic Latin she needed to know as a young person for the Mass responses, and probably little else as her family was not that devout and she attended a public high school, where she was an average student. As a sister, she spent a great deal of time engaging in social justice work in accordance with her order's goals, and primarily used the original English translation of the Jerusalem Bible for many years, switching only when it was rewritten with different language. She wasn't the scholarly type who would have been sitting around reading Latin scripture, and being female and pre-V2, she wouldn't have even learned all the Latin responses that the boys and young men who served at Mass had to know. There is a school of thought (not sure how widespread it is), shared by our commentator here, that Latin liturgies should be reserved for those who are fluent in Latin, and who use it throughout their everyday lives, otherwise, they must assist at Mass in the vernacular which they speak. The Church never required this in the past, nor does she require it now. (Presumably these people are allowed to raise their own children in it, and if those children adhere to it in their adult lives, they, too, will raise their children in it, lather, rinse, repeat.) There is also the assertion that the TLM is only proper for those who grew up with it, and who for some reason --- a kind of spiritual minus habens seems to be implied here --- cannot use the OF. That, too, has never been required by the Church in the years following the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae. The OF is not difficult to learn, least of all in the vernacular. Sacrosanctum concilium called for the retention of Latin in at least portions of the Mass. There was no requirement that people assisting at such Masses have a complete command of Latin. There never has been, and there is not now. |
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Post by tth1 on Aug 9, 2023 14:39:38 GMT
I also doubt Mother A was that fluent in Latin. She would have learned the basic Latin she needed to know as a young person for the Mass responses, and probably little else as her family was not that devout and she attended a public high school, where she was an average student. As a sister, she spent a great deal of time engaging in social justice work in accordance with her order's goals, and primarily used the original English translation of the Jerusalem Bible for many years, switching only when it was rewritten with different language. She wasn't the scholarly type who would have been sitting around reading Latin scripture, and being female and pre-V2, she wouldn't have even learned all the Latin responses that the boys and young men who served at Mass had to know. There is a school of thought (not sure how widespread it is), shared by our commentator here, that Latin liturgies should be reserved for those who are fluent in Latin, and who use it throughout their everyday lives, otherwise, they must assist at Mass in the vernacular which they speak. The Church never required this in the past, nor does she require it now. (Presumably these people are allowed to raise their own children in it, and if those children adhere to it in their adult lives, they, too, will raise their children in it, lather, rinse, repeat.) There is also the assertion that the TLM is only proper for those who grew up with it, and who for some reason --- a kind of spiritual minus habens seems to be implied here --- cannot use the OF. That, too, has never been required by the Church in the years following the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae. The OF is not difficult to learn, least of all in the vernacular. Sacrosanctum concilium called for the retention of Latin in at least portions of the Mass. There was no requirement that people assisting at such Masses have a complete command of Latin. There never has been, and there is not now. I am not completely sure of your point but I don't agree with what you're saying.
I don't think people think a high degree of fluency in Latin is required to attend the TLM.
I can't comment on what the Church expects of the faithful at a TLM; however, I don't think it's beyond the wit of the average person to learn the Latin responses.
Plus I don't know why you think a lot of people think the TLM is only for people who grew up with it. I understand a lot of young people go to the TLM and they can't possibly have grown up with it.
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Post by theguvnor on Aug 9, 2023 17:11:24 GMT
If my father who left school at age 12 can learn them I think most people can.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 9, 2023 17:23:30 GMT
There is a school of thought (not sure how widespread it is), shared by our commentator here, that Latin liturgies should be reserved for those who are fluent in Latin, and who use it throughout their everyday lives, otherwise, they must assist at Mass in the vernacular which they speak. The Church never required this in the past, nor does she require it now. (Presumably these people are allowed to raise their own children in it, and if those children adhere to it in their adult lives, they, too, will raise their children in it, lather, rinse, repeat.) There is also the assertion that the TLM is only proper for those who grew up with it, and who for some reason --- a kind of spiritual minus habens seems to be implied here --- cannot use the OF. That, too, has never been required by the Church in the years following the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae. The OF is not difficult to learn, least of all in the vernacular. Sacrosanctum concilium called for the retention of Latin in at least portions of the Mass. There was no requirement that people assisting at such Masses have a complete command of Latin. There never has been, and there is not now. I am not completely sure of your point but I don't agree with what you're saying.
I don't think people think a high degree of fluency in Latin is required to attend the TLM.
I can't comment on what the Church expects of the faithful at a TLM; however, I don't think it's beyond the wit of the average person to learn the Latin responses.
Plus I don't know why you think a lot of people think the TLM is only for people who grew up with it. I understand a lot of young people go to the TLM and they can't possibly have grown up with it.
I am not the one making these contentions. We have another commentator on this forum who routinely makes these objections, that are found nowhere in any Church disciplinary document of which I'm aware. No particular knowledge of Latin is required for assistance at the TLM. The acolytes act as "stand-ins" for the congregation, you could say, and they are the only participants who must actually make any responses. Some, such as myself, choose to make these responses sotto voce from the pew, but nobody has to. Anyone is welcome to come check out the TLM and see if it's right for them. Sometimes you can't really explain why something moves you or satisfies you spiritually, it just does. Sometimes I get the impression that a lot of animus towards the TLM is really thinly veiled hostility towards European and European-adjacent heritage and culture (there's another word for that), with the TLM being a particularly explicit (and, to them, obnoxious) exemplar of it. Some seem to be dreaming of a day, far in the future, when Europeanness will just vanish into the mists of time and Latin will become what, say, Aramaic is today, a largely forgotten and utterly irrelevant language. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 9, 2023 17:28:23 GMT
If my father who left school at age 12 can learn them I think most people can. Of course they can. It's a matter of priorities. Depending upon their interests and circumstances, people remember vast reams of sports statistics and team lineups over the years, catchy dance moves, complicated military instructions, intricate family trees going back several generations, and so on. Compared to this, a hundred words of Latin would be no big deal. And many, many people throughout the world are bilingual, witness that the children of immigrants often work seamlessly in both their parents' languages and the languages spoken where they live. |
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 9, 2023 18:22:47 GMT
Sometimes I get the impression that a lot of animus towards the TLM is really thinly veiled hostility towards European and European-adjacent heritage and culture (there's another word for that), with the TLM being a particularly explicit (and, to them, obnoxious) exemplar of it. Some seem to be dreaming of a day, far in the future, when Europeanness will just vanish into the mists of time and Latin will become what, say, Aramaic is today, a largely forgotten and utterly irrelevant language. For some people with negative impressions of European colonial rule, I can understand them having that attitude. However, just because somebody doesn't like TLM (or OF or charismatic Mass or whatever), they shouldn't automatically get to do away with it if others find it fruitful. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2023 20:09:18 GMT
i studied Latin at secondary school but it had little bearing on my decision to attend TLMs when possible.
I currently attend a Novus ordo Mass where all the sung parts are in Latin - only the readings, homily, and Canon are in English - most of the ordinary and some of the propers and in Latin.
Basically, you just pick up over time the Latin parts. I learned how to sing the creed, the Gloria, the sanctus, etc. in Latin by osmosis after attending this Mass for months. I already knew the Pater noster. You just pick it up over time. If you think about it, those who grew up attending the TLM would likely have picked up a lot of it growing up.
It is not difficult at all. If you know the basic Latin propers and can follow along with a missal it is no problem.
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