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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 19, 2023 18:05:37 GMT
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2023/08/new-tlm-shrine-in-cleveland-shows-that.htmlVery thankful for this. TLM adherents aren't just going to shrivel up and blow away. One question I've had recently: let's say that the TLM were no longer available. Do mainline Novus Ordo parishes really want traditionalists to be there among them, women in their veils, people choosing to kneel for communion, receiving on the tongue, crossing aisles to receive from a priest or deacon, possibly even sitting on the front row, saying their rosary in Latin before or after Mass, maybe even refusing the sign of peace, and so on? And don't forget the optics of those large families.Some of a more modern bent might prefer to have these troglodytes out of their sight.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 19, 2023 19:14:04 GMT
In the neighborhood where St Elizabeth's is, the TLM is probably the only hope of getting a steady congregation to attend and donate and keep the church open. If it had to be closed, the diocese would make little or no money off selling it or the land because the neighborhood went way downhill years ago.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 19, 2023 19:56:50 GMT
In the neighborhood where St Elizabeth's is, the TLM is probably the only hope of getting a steady congregation to attend and donate and keep the church open. If it had to be closed, the diocese would make little or no money off selling it or the land because the neighborhood went way downhill years ago. Whatever works…
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Post by davebj on Aug 19, 2023 21:18:42 GMT
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2023/08/new-tlm-shrine-in-cleveland-shows-that.htmlVery thankful for this. TLM adherents aren't just going to shrivel up and blow away. One question I've had recently: let's say that the TLM were no longer available. Do mainline Novus Ordo parishes really want traditionalists to be there among them, women in their veils, people choosing to kneel for communion, receiving on the tongue, crossing aisles to receive from a priest or deacon, possibly even sitting on the front row, saying their rosary in Latin before or after Mass, maybe even refusing the sign of peace, and so on? And don't forget the optics of those large families.Some of a more modern bent might prefer to have these troglodytes out of their sight. We have congregants in our parish who do some or all of the above. It's like that line from the famous cantina scene early in Jurassic Park -- "Nobody cares!" Dxx
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Post by farronwolf on Aug 19, 2023 23:35:36 GMT
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2023/08/new-tlm-shrine-in-cleveland-shows-that.htmlVery thankful for this. TLM adherents aren't just going to shrivel up and blow away. One question I've had recently: let's say that the TLM were no longer available. Do mainline Novus Ordo parishes really want traditionalists to be there among them, women in their veils, people choosing to kneel for communion, receiving on the tongue, crossing aisles to receive from a priest or deacon, possibly even sitting on the front row, saying their rosary in Latin before or after Mass, maybe even refusing the sign of peace, and so on? And don't forget the optics of those large families.Some of a more modern bent might prefer to have these troglodytes out of their sight. You seriously have to ask these questions. There is a Rosary said before every Mass at our Parish. There are prei dieus in the front of the isle at our Parish. People could care less if a woman wears a veil or not. Usually only priests, sometimes deacons distribute communion. It isn't the NO attendees that are creating division within the Church. Your cultish mindset is troubling at times.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 20, 2023 1:18:54 GMT
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2023/08/new-tlm-shrine-in-cleveland-shows-that.htmlVery thankful for this. TLM adherents aren't just going to shrivel up and blow away. One question I've had recently: let's say that the TLM were no longer available. Do mainline Novus Ordo parishes really want traditionalists to be there among them, women in their veils, people choosing to kneel for communion, receiving on the tongue, crossing aisles to receive from a priest or deacon, possibly even sitting on the front row, saying their rosary in Latin before or after Mass, maybe even refusing the sign of peace, and so on? And don't forget the optics of those large families.Some of a more modern bent might prefer to have these troglodytes out of their sight. Your cultish mindset is troubling at times. Please elaborate. There is nothing "cultish" about preferring more traditional liturgy and spirituality, nor in defending traditional Catholic moral theology and teachings regarding, inter alia, marriage and chastity.
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Post by farronwolf on Aug 20, 2023 1:38:52 GMT
Your cultish mindset is troubling at times. Please elaborate. There is nothing "cultish" about preferring more traditional liturgy and spirituality, nor in defending traditional Catholic moral theology and teachings regarding, inter alia, marriage and chastity. There is nothing to elaborate about. Your posts meet the definition of the word I used. The fact that you feel that NO attendees somehow look down on people who may be different than them, when in fact the Church is made up of a very, very diverse population, probably the most diverse of any religion. In addition to the fact that you think for some reason NO attendees don't believe in Catholic morals or teachings. Just an FYI, there are just as many sinners at the TLM as there are at the NO. Yea, yea, I know you have your pet peeve sins, but guess what, you aren't in a position to be God. Get out more, spend time with your fellow man/woman, it will do you some good.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 20, 2023 2:45:42 GMT
Please elaborate. There is nothing "cultish" about preferring more traditional liturgy and spirituality, nor in defending traditional Catholic moral theology and teachings regarding, inter alia, marriage and chastity. There is nothing to elaborate about. Your posts meet the definition of the word I used. The fact that you feel that NO attendees somehow look down on people who may be different than them, when in fact the Church is made up of a very, very diverse population, probably the most diverse of any religion. In addition to the fact that you think for some reason NO attendees don't believe in Catholic morals or teachings. Just an FYI, there are just as many sinners at the TLM as there are at the NO. Yea, yea, I know you have your pet peeve sins, but guess what, you aren't in a position to be God. Get out more, spend time with your fellow man/woman, it will do you some good. I spend time with people quite a bit. Thank you for your concern. I have never said, nor do I think, that Novus Ordo attendees look down on others. WRT TLM adherents, they're pretty much indifferent --- dislike for the TLM largely rests with various prelates and possibly a priest here or there. Nobody else really cares. (Those laity who were traumatized by various aspects of their upbringing in the pre-Vatican II Church are passing from the scene every day. Requiescant in pace.) As far as some Novus Ordo attendees not believing in (some) aspects of Catholic morality, or (some) Catholic teachings, just read the polls. Or ask people. They'll tell you. TLM adherents will be the first to acknowledge that, yes, they are sinners. TLM venues tend to have long confession lines. At mainline Novus Ordo churches, the line on any given Saturday can be counted in the single digits, and this is in parishes of hundreds or even thousands of faithful. Do they just not sin as much? What's their secret? And I do not have "pet peeve" sins. I dislike all sins (most of all my own). Sins that are called into doubt, or denied, as to their sinfulness, are worthy of special concern, because that is not merely a matter of people falling into sins that they know are sins --- we all do that (I know I do) --- rather, it is as the serpent told Eve, "you will not die".
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Post by farronwolf on Aug 20, 2023 3:07:12 GMT
There is nothing to elaborate about. Your posts meet the definition of the word I used. The fact that you feel that NO attendees somehow look down on people who may be different than them, when in fact the Church is made up of a very, very diverse population, probably the most diverse of any religion. In addition to the fact that you think for some reason NO attendees don't believe in Catholic morals or teachings. Just an FYI, there are just as many sinners at the TLM as there are at the NO. Yea, yea, I know you have your pet peeve sins, but guess what, you aren't in a position to be God. Get out more, spend time with your fellow man/woman, it will do you some good. I spend time with people quite a bit. Thank you for your concern. I have never said, nor do I think, that Novus Ordo attendees look down on others. As far as some Novus Ordo attendees not believing in (some) aspects of Catholic morality, or (some) Catholic teachings, just read the polls. Or ask people. They'll tell you. TLM adherents will be the first to acknowledge that, yes, they are sinners. TLM venues tend to have long confession lines. At mainline Novus Ordo churches, the line on any given Saturday can be counted in the single digits, and this is in parishes of hundreds or even thousands of faithful. Do they just not sin as much? What's their secret? And I do not have "pet peeve" sins. I dislike all sins (most of all my own). Sins that are called into doubt, or denied, as to their sinfulness, are worthy of special concern, because that is not merely a matter of people falling into sins that they know are sins --- we all do that (I know I do) --- rather, it is as the serpent told Eve, "you will not die". Again, seriously. Do mainline Novus Ordo parishes really want traditionalists to be there among them, women in their veils, people choosing to kneel for communion, receiving on the tongue, crossing aisles to receive from a priest or deacon, possibly even sitting on the front row, saying their rosary in Latin before or after Mass, maybe even refusing the sign of peace, and so on? And don't forget the optics of those large families. What do you call this?
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 20, 2023 3:12:32 GMT
I spend time with people quite a bit. Thank you for your concern. I have never said, nor do I think, that Novus Ordo attendees look down on others. As far as some Novus Ordo attendees not believing in (some) aspects of Catholic morality, or (some) Catholic teachings, just read the polls. Or ask people. They'll tell you. TLM adherents will be the first to acknowledge that, yes, they are sinners. TLM venues tend to have long confession lines. At mainline Novus Ordo churches, the line on any given Saturday can be counted in the single digits, and this is in parishes of hundreds or even thousands of faithful. Do they just not sin as much? What's their secret? And I do not have "pet peeve" sins. I dislike all sins (most of all my own). Sins that are called into doubt, or denied, as to their sinfulness, are worthy of special concern, because that is not merely a matter of people falling into sins that they know are sins --- we all do that (I know I do) --- rather, it is as the serpent told Eve, "you will not die". Again, seriously. Do mainline Novus Ordo parishes really want traditionalists to be there among them, women in their veils, people choosing to kneel for communion, receiving on the tongue, crossing aisles to receive from a priest or deacon, possibly even sitting on the front row, saying their rosary in Latin before or after Mass, maybe even refusing the sign of peace, and so on? And don't forget the optics of those large families. What do you call this? Annoyance and irritation, something quite a bit different from "looking down on them". And remember how Cain got angry at Abel because God liked Abel's sacrifice better. It didn't end well.
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Post by farronwolf on Aug 20, 2023 3:24:03 GMT
If you are going to look at the Bible for references, you might start with the lepers.
Were people irritated by them or annoyed by them, or did they look down on them, and that is the reason they didn't want them among the populace?
The answer isn't irritation or annoyance.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 20, 2023 12:37:09 GMT
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2023/08/new-tlm-shrine-in-cleveland-shows-that.htmlVery thankful for this. TLM adherents aren't just going to shrivel up and blow away. One question I've had recently: let's say that the TLM were no longer available. Do mainline Novus Ordo parishes really want traditionalists to be there among them, women in their veils, people choosing to kneel for communion, receiving on the tongue, crossing aisles to receive from a priest or deacon, possibly even sitting on the front row, saying their rosary in Latin before or after Mass, maybe even refusing the sign of peace, and so on? And don't forget the optics of those large families.Some of a more modern bent might prefer to have these troglodytes out of their sight. We have congregants in our parish who do some or all of the above. It's like that line from the famous cantina scene early in Jurassic Park -- "Nobody cares!" Dxx LOL yeah they're everywhere. The only time they're even noticeable is when they're rushing to get away from the communion line with the female EMHC and maneuver into the priest's line - sometimes they have to go against the flow of people to get over there.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 20, 2023 12:50:53 GMT
I was checking to see if St Elizabeth's parish was one I had been to before. In 2015-2016 I went through a phase as a newly returned Catholic of driving around to attend Mass at Catholic churches in Cleveland that I'd never visited, some in dodgy areas, but St Elizabeth's does not look to be one of them. I did notice that it appears to be on the National Register of Historic Places, which would make it even harder for the diocese to do anything un-churchly with the building. I'll have to go check the place out on a future visit.
In my perambulations around the Cleveland churches, I was happy to re-discover one I had been seeking for many years. A couple decades back my mom insisted on taking me to Mass at a church she had visited during some bus tour or Catholic event because it was so beautiful, she decided I must see it. So we went and it was indeed awesome with tons of amazing wood carving decorating the whole place. I then managed to forget the name and location of the church and Mom died so I couldn't find it. Then I went to one of the established TLM's (back then it was only about the 3rd time I went to a TLM) in a sketchy part of the West Side at a church called St. Stephen's, and discovered that was the church Mom had taken me to.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 20, 2023 17:42:07 GMT
We have congregants in our parish who do some or all of the above. It's like that line from the famous cantina scene early in Jurassic Park -- "Nobody cares!" Dxx LOL yeah they're everywhere. The only time they're even noticeable is when they're rushing to get away from the communion line with the female EMHC and maneuver into the priest's line - sometimes they have to go against the flow of people to get over there. You may see such things more in some places than in others. During the past few years, I've basically gone to the TLM with occasional visits to the Novus Ordo parish downtown, so I might be kind of out of the loop on what goes on where these days. At the parish associated with my son's former school, I attended because I was forced to, to receive the tuition subsidy (though it was our territorial parish, so I was entirely within my rights) --- they "take attendance" based upon envelopes in the collection on a given Sunday --- and it was a typical liberal, affluent suburban parish, achingly post-Vatican II, and the priest would randomly move from one communion line to the other, so that even if you did get in his line, that was no guarantee it'd be "his line" by the time you received. That's one reason I quit going there. (Though, to be fair, the pastor was always respectful of my TLM sympathies and never said "boo" to me about it. He is well-liked in our city even by rock-ribbed TLM-only adherents.) The downtown parish uses EMHCs very sparingly, and, of course, the TLM doesn't use them at all. Quite aside from any difference in the forms, that is one reason I've preferred the TLM over the years --- it's the same everywhere, you know precisely what you're getting, and you never have any unwelcome surprises. Kind of like staying in chain hotels and eating at chain restaurants when you travel, a "mom and pop" business might be the greatest place ever, or it might be a dump, whereas with the chains, you always have some kind of baseline guarantee of quality, even if banal and unspectacular. When you've stayed at one Hampton Inn, you've stayed at all of them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 6:43:55 GMT
To be fair, at least here in New Zealand, there are some Novus ordo parishes were women veiling, receiving communion on the tongue, etc., is looked down upon.
Between the ages of 15 and 18 I attended a normal suburban Novus ordo parish where I was frequently the only one who wanted to receive on the tongue and must have really stood out because most of the other parishioners were in their 60s and 70s, and there I was with my missal and suit and tie sitting towards the back of the church. The people at this church were of course well-intentioned and many of them very devout. But even I felt a little out of place and awkward, and I hardly oozed "traditionalism" like a veiled woman with ten children would.
I feel much more comfortable at my current parish, which is a very conservative Novus ordo parish. Even during the spread of COVID-19, a priest in his mid-80s said he would give me COTT as long as we were discreet about it.
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