|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Sept 9, 2023 16:55:14 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by blackforest on Sept 12, 2023 19:46:06 GMT
Out of curiosity, who are the "opponents in the hierarchy?" There are some valid concerns over potential subversion, political posturing, and the descent into cosmetic Catholicism. And that may explain some of the criticisms and attempts to pull on the reins. But where TLM is licit, I haven't heard any clergy express overt and total opposition to TLM.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Sept 12, 2023 22:25:47 GMT
Out of curiosity, who are the "opponents in the hierarchy?" There are some valid concerns over potential subversion, political posturing, and the descent into cosmetic Catholicism. And that may explain some of the criticisms and attempts to pull on the reins. But where TLM is licit, I haven't heard any clergy express overt and total opposition to TLM. Maybe not "total" (though Francis's "in due time" comment about getting away from the TLM probably qualifies): Pope Francis Cardinal Roche Cardinal Cupich Cardinal Gregory Bishop Mulvey of Corpus Christi Bishop Warfel of Great Falls-Billings Bishop Vetter of Helena Bishop Doherty of Lafayette various bishops in Brazil and Costa Rica I'm sure there are others. To be fair, some of these bishops may have acted more out of seeking to adhere totally to TC, rather than being opposed personally themselves. I don't think there really is that much widespread opposition to the TLM per se, but it's there, and it's in high places. |
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Sept 14, 2023 18:46:35 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Sept 17, 2023 3:52:41 GMT
This is the closest we get to views of the EF, and refers only to the U.S. www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/10/07/two-thirds-of-u-s-catholics-unaware-of-popes-new-restrictions-on-traditional-latin-mass/That is, most don't know about restrictions to the EF, which implies that most don't know about the EF, and probably don't even care. Also, I think the numbers are even higher outside the U.S. I'm also guessing that most don't know Latin, and have little access to Churches, priests, Missals, Bibles, and more. Finally, FWIW, most Catholics in the U.S. also don't believe in transubstantiation: www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/08/05/transubstantiation-eucharist-u-s-catholics/The implication is that the problem isn't the absence of the EF but the absence of education and basic needs. And that problem will be around for some time. |
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Sept 17, 2023 18:26:56 GMT
This is the closest we get to views of the EF, and refers only to the U.S. www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/10/07/two-thirds-of-u-s-catholics-unaware-of-popes-new-restrictions-on-traditional-latin-mass/That is, most don't know about restrictions to the EF, which implies that most don't know about the EF, and probably don't even care. Also, I think the numbers are even higher outside the U.S. I'm also guessing that most don't know Latin, and have little access to Churches, priests, Missals, Bibles, and more. Finally, FWIW, most Catholics in the U.S. also don't believe in transubstantiation: www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/08/05/transubstantiation-eucharist-u-s-catholics/The implication is that the problem isn't the absence of the EF but the absence of education and basic needs. And that problem will be around for some time. Quite right. The vast majority of Catholics don't know and don't care. Opposition to the EF is almost completely confined to prelates who see more and more people coming to prefer the EF and don't like it, for whatever reason. The generations that were traumatized by the pre-Vatican II Church are dying out. Contemporary Catholics, at least in the US, don't believe in the Real Presence because they've never been taught, or have never absorbed what they were taught. The modern mind can't assimilate something being other than what it appears to be --- it's just too abstract. |
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Sept 17, 2023 19:44:08 GMT
Meanwhile, the generations being traumatized by Pope Francis' church are marching on.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Sept 17, 2023 20:40:06 GMT
Meanwhile, the generations being traumatized by Pope Francis' church are marching on. And having children of their own, oftentimes large families. I haven't heard any proposals for having only parents attend the TLM, and leaving their children at home so they won't grow up with it. If the powers that be want to remove the TLM from the minds of future generations, you'd think they'd impose such limits. |
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Sept 17, 2023 21:12:54 GMT
I predict that all this TLM-hatin’ will fade away like an old soldier after Pope Francis goes to his great reward. It’s an unnecessary and stupid distraction at a time when the Church is facing real issues such as the situation in Ukraine, persecution in numerous countries, worldwide ongoing clergy abuse scandals with no letup, and LGBTQ everything everywhere.
I am at this point inclined to agree with the late Cardinal Pell that the Francis papacy has been more disastrous than not. It needs to go away.
|
|
|
|
Post by blackforest on Sept 17, 2023 21:13:18 GMT
Much of the TLM crowd in my are has become a *movement* against the Pope. I don't know if an all-out ban is the answer, but I can certainly understand calls for more regulation.
As a Montanan, I can assure that you'd have not just the bishop to survive, but our winters, as well. If a law passed requiring all property-owners to overwinter there, the state would think out pretty quickly, lol!! (Then I could finally afford to live in Bozeman . . . )
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Sept 17, 2023 22:20:36 GMT
I predict that all this TLM-hatin’ will fade away like an old soldier after Pope Francis goes to his great reward. It’s an unnecessary and stupid distraction at a time when the Church is facing real issues such as the situation in Ukraine, persecution in numerous countries, worldwide ongoing clergy abuse scandals with no letup, and LGBTQ everything everywhere. I am at this point inclined to agree with the late Cardinal Pell that the Francis papacy has been more disastrous than not. It needs to go away. I am hoping that the next Pope will be some boring old prelate nobody has ever heard of, and that he will be the very antithesis of an outspoken media presence. Benedict XVI kinda-sorta filled that role (though he was by no means unknown), and there has never been a better time to be a Catholic in my lifetime (unless you count the early years of John XXIII, but I was just a baby and not even Catholic). Leaving TC largely unenforced, and pretty much rubber-stamping permissions for newly ordained priests to offer the TLM, would be a plus. Allowing new communities would be good too. |
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Sept 17, 2023 22:23:05 GMT
Much of the TLM crowd in my are has become a *movement* against the Pope. I don't know if an all-out ban is the answer, but I can certainly understand calls for more regulation. As a Montanan, I can assure that you'd have not just the bishop to survive, but our winters, as well. If a law passed requiring all property-owners to overwinter there, the state would think out pretty quickly, lol!! (Then I could finally afford to live in Bozeman . . . ) I must live in some diocesan TLM utopia. Pope Francis is never mentioned, yea or nay. His portrait does hang large in the vestibule of our church, but that's about it. |
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Sept 17, 2023 22:30:40 GMT
I barely attend any "TLM community" and rarely hear the Pope mentioned by anyone except to pray for him. My thoughts are my own.
As a Catholic who enjoys the occasional Latin Mass, is pro-life, and generally trying to keep myself on a reasonable path towards growing closer to God and Salvation, Pope Francis' endless jabs at the TLM, at people who pray, at conservative bishops expressing reasonable doctrinal concerns, plus his constant harping on the Synod, his utter failure to take any action against the German Bishops, his poor handling of the situation in China, and now his gaffes with respect to the Ukraine, have caused me to lose most of my confidence in him.
At this point I think he is an old sick man who only wants to hear praise and no criticism and should probably resign, but won't. I Pray for the Lord to help him, but he is exhausting and tiresome and I pray for a better successor.
And I couldn't care less what insults progressives or Francis fans want to throw my way for saying that. They all remind me of the lame "social justice" clergy and religious and lay when I was a kid, who provided absolutely zero inspiration or motivation for me to stay in the Church.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2023 23:06:52 GMT
I barely attend any "TLM community" and rarely hear the Pope mentioned by anyone except to pray for him. My thoughts are my own. As a Catholic who enjoys the occasional Latin Mass, is pro-life, and generally trying to keep myself on a reasonable path towards growing closer to God and Salvation, Pope Francis' endless jabs at the TLM, at people who pray, at conservative bishops expressing reasonable doctrinal concerns, plus his constant harping on the Synod, his utter failure to take any action against the German Bishops, his poor handling of the situation in China, and now his gaffes with respect to the Ukraine, have caused me to lose most of my confidence in him. At this point I think he is an old sick man who only wants to hear praise and no criticism and should probably resign, but won't. I Pray for the Lord to help him, but he is exhausting and tiresome and I pray for a better successor. And I couldn't care less what insults progressives or Francis fans want to throw my way for saying that. They all remind me of the lame "social justice" clergy and religious and lay when I was a kid, who provided absolutely zero inspiration or motivation for me to stay I'm the Church. Putting aside all the other (quite legitimate) concerns, I would say that Pope Francis' attitude towards Ukraine and Russia has been very good. He never praised the unjust, criminal aggression of Russia but also made it clear he doesn't share the Russophobic views of many who think of Russia as a lost cause. If some in Ukraine fail to understand it, then that it is quite sad, but the Pope is not only the Pope of Ukraine, he is the Pope of Russia as well. I think his comments to young Russians should be read in context. If I were a young Russian I would feel sad that so many in the world view me as evil just because I am Russian. Russophobia is a massive problem. Russians who travel to Poland and Germany by car often have their car seized. Unbelievable injustice. Imagine being a Russian and going on holiday only to have your car confiscated just because of what your government is doing. I am astonished at what Putin is doing in Ukraine. But we understand there are still 140 million people in Russia, their lives go on, and most of them are Christians. Some of them are Catholics who are just doing their best to live out their call to Christian holiness in the difficult context they live in, and Pope Francis was trying to encourage them to take pride in the many amazing and good aspects of their country's history. Granted, if I were him, I likely would not have praised Peter the Great, I would have chosen Tsar Nicholas II perhaps or Dostoevsky, or Patriarch Tikhon. But the point is the same: Russia has a great heritage and Russians should take pride in it. One can take pride in that heritage without supporting Russia's aggression in Ukraine. Pope Francis clarified many times he is horrified at what is happening in Ukraine. Honestly, he even broke down in tears when giving a speech about Ukraine. The suffering of the Ukrainian people is close to his heart, as it is to mine, and I also hope that Pope Francis will perhaps begin to speak out against the tragic persecution of Christians in Ukraine too. We Christians must be radical, and not worry about the backlash we receive, as long as we say what is right, we have nothing to fear. Also, everybody talks about Ukraine, but few are willing to oppose the Christian persecution in that country, because they fear they will be labelled as Russian propagandists. The silence of the hierarchs of our own Catholic Church on this matter is tragic - especially as some of our brothers and sisters in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church are some of the main instigators of the persecution. |
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Sept 18, 2023 2:06:15 GMT
I realize that a large part of your whole raison d'etre for being on these forums is to make long posts defending Russia and Russian Orthodoxy. Why I don't know given that you don't live there and aren't Orthodox, I have just accepted it as this weird thing you do all the time. Obviously if you think Pope Francis is agreeing with whatever you're on about then you're gonna like it. At this point he better be making points with the Russians because his approval rating with Ukrainians has gone from about 60 percent before the war to about 3 percent now, they distrust him greatly. Given that he's supposed to be on the side of the oppressed and not the oppressor, it's not a good situation.
|
|
