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Post by iagosan on Oct 6, 2023 11:25:37 GMT
The desecration of Canterbury Cathedral
Pilgrims came from all over Europe to pray at the Tomb of St Thomas à Becket at Canterbury Cathedral England after his martyrdom.
If you know little of him you can familiarise yourself here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Becket
At the Reformation, reformers destroyed and desecrated his shrine (pictured below) which was in what is now, an Anglican Cathedral.
Now, their successors are continuing the process by desecrating his Cathedral again. If it can happen in Canterbury Cathedral, it can happen in your church!
The destroyed shrine of St Thomas Becket
This engraving keeps alive the memory of a religious cult that the architects of the Henrician Reformation were determined to make the nation forget. The shrine of Thomas Becket at Canterbury was one of the premier destinations of pilgrims in late medieval Europe. Assassinated in his own cathedral in 1270, Becket’s status as a saint was closely tied up with his defence of the rights of the Church against the encroachments of King Henry II. Unsurprisingly, his cult became the most high profile casualty of the break with Rome: a proclamation of 1538 ordered the obliteration of his name and image from liturgical books and ecclesiastical buildings. His tomb was smashed to bits, but the exact fate of his bones remains a mystery. Rumours that Henry VIII had them ceremoniously incinerated scandalised sixteenth-century Catholics, but they may simply have been buried to prevent their continuing veneration. Based on a drawing among the manuscripts in Sir Robert Cotton’s library, this illustration was incorporated into Roger Dodsworth and William Dugdale’s influential Monasticon Anglicanum, the first volume of which appeared during the Interregnum. Indicative of mellowing attitudes towards the monastic past within some sectors of the Church of England, this antiquarian compilation of documents included many images of dissolved abbeys and priories. AW
Roger Dodsworth and William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum sive Pandectæ Cœnobiorum, Benedictinorum Cluniacensium, Cisterciensium, Carthusianorum; a primordiis ad eorum usque dissolutionem, 3 vols (London: Richard Hodgkinson, 1655-73), vol. 1, second plate between pp. 20 and 21.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 6, 2023 12:51:52 GMT
I blame Protestants and specifically Anglicans for this and all the other horrors, like mini golf, going on in their empty cathedrals. It’s the result of their sin in leaving the Church.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 7, 2023 11:56:15 GMT
They have to do these things to get people in. They no longer teach orthodox Christianity but basically anything goes and you'll get to Heaven no matter what. People looking for something fom religion won't find it in the Anglican Church.
My fear is that there's a good chance we're going to follow the Anglican Church down the same path.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 7, 2023 15:17:52 GMT
I quite like the services my local Anglican Church does where they've moved towards a model embracing quite a bit of music and Gospel style choirs because this area of London has about a 40 per cent Afro-Caribbean population. They also do more traditional services as well. Here's the Anglican Arch-Deacon for the area: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJqC7B4u6_o
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Post by Dominic on Oct 7, 2023 17:32:38 GMT
I quite like the services my local Anglican Church does where they've moved towards a model embracing quite a bit of music and Gospel style choirs because this area of London has about a 40 per cent Afro-Caribbean population. They also do more traditional services as well. Here's the Anglican Arch-Deacon for the area: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJqC7B4u6_oHey! My son lives nearby on Fish Island! I'll tell him to check St. John's out. He's a concert fanatic. It looks like Gary Numan is appearing there on the 16th and 17th this month! Wish I could go! He used to live in Deptford, and go to events at St. Paul's Deptford a lot, too. We he lived there, we studied up together on the history of Deptford. Really, really in depth, starting with the Romans. We I visited him there, we stopped in in St. Paul's, where an older woman offered to show us around and quickly figured out that we weren't just your average tourists. She excused herself and came back with a colleague who was a history buff. He was thrilled to meet two Yanks who knew so much about the local history, and ended up spending four hours showing us around. He was especially impressed that we knew about and admired Fr. Diamond, who was their pastor during the 1970's and worked a lot to revitalize the community. I blame Protestants and specifically Anglicans for this and all the other horrors, like mini golf, going on in their empty cathedrals. It’s the result of their sin in leaving the Church. Shining example of Christian charity today, aren't you? Don't forget that when asked to give an example of how we should love our neighbor, he specifically chose a heretical Samaritan as our model.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 7, 2023 20:23:11 GMT
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Post by Dominic on Oct 7, 2023 20:53:49 GMT
I'm in shock. That wasn't in the nave, but in the sanctuary, on the very altar. Which had to be destroyed. I feel sorry for the parishioners.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 7, 2023 21:19:15 GMT
I'm in shock. That wasn't in the nave, but in the sanctuary, on the very altar. Which had to be destroyed. I feel sorry for the parishioners. I was using "nave" in the sense of the entire interior of the church, including the altar and sanctuary. As a practical matter, it is all one large open area, including the transepts. Unlike in Eastern churches, there is no separation aside from the altar rail, which newer churches rarely have. You are technically correct.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 7, 2023 21:25:03 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 7, 2023 21:59:43 GMT
I bet there's a lot of gay people who have an appreciation for the fine art decorating those old churches.
Too bad about Our Lady of Mount Carmel.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 7, 2023 22:14:58 GMT
I bet there's a lot of gay people who have an appreciation for the fine art decorating those old churches. Too bad about Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Honey, this is supposed to be Catholic Common Sense, not Westboro Common Nonsense.
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Post by Dominic on Oct 8, 2023 0:09:53 GMT
Just as a mental exercise, would anyone here take a sledgehammer and smash Michelangelo's Pieta to bits, if the Pope ordered you to? This reminds me of the quandry Palestrina was in when he was ordered to destroy Gregorian Chant by Pope Gregory XIII (of calendar fame), creating in its place a dumbed-down, bastardized version bereft of anything of value. He obediently started doing so, but in the end, decided that he couldn't do so in good conscience, destroyed his work on it to date, and passed the job on to one of his students, who came up with the Medici Graduale. While it was officially published by the Church, it was so awful that nobody ever used it until it was rediscovered in the 1800's and promoted by the Cecilian Movement. The monks at Solesmes had been working on their own recreation of Gregorian Chant for some time, and finally convinced Pope Pius X to ditch the Medici version in favor of their own version. Unfortunately, by that time, so much had been lost that they could only piece together a faint replica of what the Chant must have been, in spite of their incredible research. In all fairness, by the time of Palestrina and Pope Gregory, there wasn't really all that much of actual Gregorian Chant surviving except the notes. In the two hundred years since it had fallen out of favor, much knowledge, especially about performance, had been lost forever. As much as I respect their research and scholarship, and admire their determination, I find their performance guidelines for Chant to be a bit jarring, as they filled in the gaps with 19th century musical theory and performance practices that would not have been used during the original Chant's lifetime. But again, they were working under time pressure to release something before the Medici version could be established as the standard. The nave, chancel and sanctuary being "one big open space" is something relatively recent. About the time of, but not directly because of the Council of Trent, thousands of chancel screens were torn down in Catholic churches all over the world. The Puritans also destroyed any that were left in England, and Protestants on the continent destroyed theirs, too. Only a few survived. In the early 1800s, the architect famous for designing the Big Ben clock tower in London became obsessed with restoring chancel screens. Mostly, Catholics were not that interested, but he did manage to sell the idea among High-Church Anglicans. Most of the chancel screens you can see in Anglican churches today are not surviving originals, but reconstructions built by him, but they are also only a faint echo of the originals.
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Post by iagosan on Oct 8, 2023 5:09:14 GMT
At least the altar was destroyed. That is not always the case in the modern church.
As far as I am aware, the altar mentioned in this report still remains and no exorcism has been carried out (though I stand to be hopefully corrected)
"Altar sex act by man in priest vestments is caught on camera
Gardaí investigate 'sacrilege'"
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 200
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 9, 2023 17:59:39 GMT
Honey, this is supposed to be Catholic Common Sense, not Westboro Common Nonsense. Westboro or no Westboro, there are a lot of extremist LGBT activists who hate Christianity with a passion.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 9, 2023 20:18:18 GMT
At least the altar was destroyed. That is not always the case in the modern church.
As far as I am aware, the altar mentioned in this report still remains and no exorcism has been carried out (though I stand to be hopefully corrected)
"Altar sex act by man in priest vestments is caught on camera
Gardaí investigate 'sacrilege'"
The desecrated altar at St. Bartholomew in Kildorerry, diocese of Cloyne, was likely built between 1830 and 1850 and as such is likely subject to historical protection or otherwise it's not feasible from an historic perspective to just take it out and smash it up and put in a new one. The altar at the church in US where same thing happened was quite new and simply designed, so it was easy to chuck it out and burn it and put in a whole new altar. My understanding is that in the event of desecration of an altar, then the bishop just needs to do a special penitential rite, as they did at St. Peter's recently after a naked man jumped on the altar. apnews.com/article/vatican-ukraine-altar-st-peter-desecration-98c8f3e617c922c2d4939fbf254283af This is further required by canon law, so I would imagine the bishop of Cloyne did the rite and it just wasn't put in the newspapers, or not the ones available to us to read online. Perhaps the guvnor is aware of some additional coverage or information available only in Ireland. The bishop in USA who had the altar ripped out and destroyed technically did not need to do that according to Code of Canon Law Canons 1211-1212, as the altar had not been permanently turned over to profane use, nor was it destroyed by the priest and two prostitutes using it for a sex act. The US bishop likely went further that what was required because it was relatively easy to remove and replace the altar. But it is not necessary to do that every time. The special penitential rite is enough. P.S. i just saw the accused priest in the Ireland case died in 2020, I will pray for him. At least he died a priest. Sadly, the priest who did the bad acts in USA was laicized and criminally sentenced to 3 years probation, and now says he's relieved that it all came to light and that he's no longer a man of faith but still believes in a higher power.
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