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Post by iagosan on Oct 20, 2023 6:07:01 GMT
Would you pray for demons?
Would you pray for demons?
Well the synod document “TOWARDS A SPIRITUALITY FOR SYNODALITY” (quoting St Isaac of Nineveh (St Isaac the Syrian) who?) suggests that you should.
Oh, and “ the family of reptiles” -to cover all bases, I expect…..
Page 29 of the document-freely available for download-can be found here:
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 20, 2023 7:10:50 GMT
Just because a saint said something doesn't make it true.
I'd certainly pray for enemies of the truth. Irrational beasts and the family of reptiles, sure, why not? God gave those irrational beasts their nature. Being irrational is just part of what they are. I'd pray for their natural happiness and well-being.
But as for demons? Sorry, but I'm afraid that ship has sailed.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 20, 2023 9:05:16 GMT
Reminds me of "Sympathy for the Devil" by the Rolling Stones
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 20, 2023 12:32:09 GMT
'The sermon today will by Fr Keith Richards. Please tune your guitars to open G and remove one string.'
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 20, 2023 13:22:33 GMT
Demons can't repent like humans can't repent after death.
We are imprisoned in this material universe until death, so we can't see God's light directly. Demons always could, and still choose to reject Him.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 20, 2023 14:39:47 GMT
I suspect that St Isaac of Syria might have been operating from a less developed theology of demonology than we have today, given that he seems to classify reptiles as Demons. Reptiles are not demons or demonic and are simply another part of God's wonderful creation. I'm not sure that they need prayers as being animals, they cannot sin and God loves and cares for them as he does with all animals he created. I occasionally ask God to care for animals or a specific animal, but this is more for my own peace of mind as God is going to care for everything he creates anyway.
With respect to praying for actual demons, I understand the danger for humans in doing that is that one might open oneself up to demonic influence. I find the various artistic representations of sad Lucifer in sculpture, movies, books etc to be interesting but don't think I should have one in my home or dwell on the idea of "sympathy for the devil" more than momentarily/ occasionally. As others noted, we are also now taught that angels and demons make their choice once and only once and can't have a do-over, so our prayers for them might have no effect. However, it is certainly possible to ask God to be merciful in general and then if there was anything he could do to help a demon (that the demon wouldn't reject), he would certainly do that.
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Post by iagosan on Oct 20, 2023 16:16:26 GMT
I suspect that St Isaac of Syria might have been operating from a less developed theology of demonology than we have today, given that he seems to classify reptiles as Demons. Reptiles are not demons or demonic and are simply another part of God's wonderful creation. I'm not sure that they need prayers as being animals, they cannot sin and God loves and cares for them as he does with all animals he created. I occasionally ask God to care for animals or a specific animal, but this is more for my own peace of mind as God is going to care for everything he creates anyway. With respect to praying for actual demons, I understand the danger for humans in doing that is that one might open oneself up to demonic influence. I find the various artistic representations of sad Lucifer in sculpture, movies, books etc to be interesting but don't think I should have one in my home or dwell on the idea of "sympathy for the devil" more than momentarily/ occasionally. As others noted, we are also now taught that angels and demons make their choice once and only once and can't have a do-over, so our prayers for them might have no effect. However, it is certainly possible to ask God to be merciful in general and then if there was anything he could do to help a demon (that the demon wouldn't reject), he would certainly do that.
“…………..Father John Zuhlsdorf, known by his blog nickname “Fr. Z,” shed some light on why St. Isaac the Syrian would make a statement like this by pointing out that he believed in apokatastasis, that is, the eventual salvation of all creatures, including the damned and the demons. The doctrine was condemned as heterodox by the Catholic Church in one of the anathemas of the Council of Constantinople in 543:
“If anyone says or holds that the punishment of demons and impious human beings is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, and that there will be a restoration of demons and impious human beings, let him be anathema.” (The Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen)
Father Aidan Kimel speculates that St. Isaac the Syrian believed in apokatastasis because the 7th century Syrian canon of the Bible, the Peshitta, did not contain the Book of Revelation, which makes clear that damnation lasts for eternity: “And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Rev 20:10).
Without going so far as to claim that Pope Francis, by allowing the publishing of this synodal document, “believes we are to love demons,” Stine noted he is “the one who … tried to conflate a demon with Our Lady,” by presenting the Pachamama idol in the Vatican — that is, a figure of a pregnant woman who represents a pagan fertility goddess — toward which Vatican visitors from the Amazon region prostrated themselves in 2019. Scripture makes clear the pagan gods are demons (Deut 32:16-17; Psalm 95:5; Psalm 106:34-38; 1 Cor 10:20-22)……….”
The rest of the article is also very informative, with hyperlinks contained therein relating to the documents mentioned in the passage above.
It is available here:
“Vatican synod website declares ‘a merciful heart’ is ‘on fire for’ ‘demons’ and all creation
A heart 'on fire' with love and mercy for demons is impossible for a Christian, as St. Thomas Aquinas has made clear.”
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 20, 2023 17:34:11 GMT
That's interesting, however the doctrine regarding "impious human beings" would seem to have "developed" with the 20th century emphasis on God's mercy. I realize that many traditional Catholics and even some regular OF-attending Catholics including clergy do not accept the Divine Mercy revelations or feel they are misapplied.
I generally like Fr Z and will read these references just so I understand more about this issue, however I also believe God can do anything and if a demon were somehow open to saving he would save them. The problem would seem to be that demons are not open in this manner and reject God very definitively so they would reject any attempt by him to help.
I don't think Pachamama is terribly relevant to this discussion as it's clear that whoever dragged that into a Vatican synod in some misguided attempt to be culturally inclusive was not viewing Pachamama as a demon.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 20, 2023 17:49:58 GMT
There are several interesting takes on demons and angels in literature I'm fond of. However, I divorce those from what the Church teaches. For example Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman's take on Heaven and Hell which has a demon and angel comparing notes across the centuries is genuinely funny and thought-provoking. Especially their view of both Heaven and Hell as bureaucracies of a particular kind. Mike Carey's 'Lucifer' comic is fabulous but does require you to have an interest in obscure myth and history to enjoy it. If you do I highly recommend it though. Michael Moorcock also uses variations on Lucifer in interesting ways, sometimes to comment on how humans make excuses for creating their own damnation. Goethe's 'Faust' is something considered of higher literary value (although I tend to like annoying literary snobs by quoting comics and stuff, it's particularly amusing to do it as a PhD student now) which plays with similar ideas at points. However, these are literary creations and I go with the view that the demons are eternally damned as held by the Church.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 20, 2023 18:32:36 GMT
The original "Bedazzled" with Dudley Moore (I haven't seen the remake and not interested in remakes of awesome period movies) was a comic retelling of Faust in which the Devil was actually attempting to win a bet with God in order to gain readmittance to Heaven. Peter Cook managed to make the Devil understandable and even relatable despite the fact that the Devil was also clearly a trickster and a jerk. As you said, this is fiction, yet one wonders whether the Devil ever secretly misses God.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 20, 2023 18:53:24 GMT
That's interesting, however the doctrine regarding "impious human beings" would seem to have "developed" with the 20th century emphasis on God's mercy. I realize that many traditional Catholics and even some regular OF-attending Catholics including clergy do not accept the Divine Mercy revelations or feel they are misapplied. I generally like Fr Z and will read these references just so I understand more about this issue, however I also believe God can do anything and if a demon were somehow open to saving he would save them. The problem would seem to be that demons are not open in this manner and reject God very definitively so they would reject any attempt by him to help. I don't think Pachamama is terribly relevant to this discussion as it's clear that whoever dragged that into a Vatican synod in some misguided attempt to be culturally inclusive was not viewing Pachamama as a demon. Really going "out there" in highly speculative armchair theology, I suppose one could pray for the angels who were facing that moment of decision --- whether to rebel against Almighty God or not --- that these angels would decide correctly and not be damned, that is, not become demons. There is a school of thought that says we may project our prayers into the past (assuming you can use a concept such as "past" when thinking of eternity), such that, for instance, someone who has already died will have received the graces at the moment of death to save their soul, even though it is something that has already happened. But praying for demons who are already in hell for all eternity? There would be no point to it. I won't deny Scripture, but as to pagan gods being demons, I have always thought more in terms of these pagan gods as having been imaginary constructs, attempts by people outside divine revelation (such as the ancient Greeks, Romans, Norse, indigenous Americans, and so on) to explain the universe, creation, and ultimate realities. They see, for instance, the sun, and imagine it to be some sort of god, and develop ideas about it from there. Whether demons could see these people reaching out to find gods, and then injecting themselves into this struggle, it's hard to say. |
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 20, 2023 19:35:10 GMT
Right, demons can come in when somebody prays to the sun or to a tree trunk or whatever. It's the same as if you call forth a dead person and get a demon responding instead.
Doesn't make the sun or the tree trunk demonic.
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Post by AveMaria on Oct 21, 2023 5:05:01 GMT
"Would you pray for demons?"
No, and any Catholic that would consider it is in dire need of an understanding of basic demonology.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 21, 2023 14:17:58 GMT
The original "Bedazzled" with Dudley Moore (I haven't seen the remake and not interested in remakes of awesome period movies) was a comic retelling of Faust in which the Devil was actually attempting to win a bet with God in order to gain readmittance to Heaven. Peter Cook managed to make the Devil understandable and even relatable despite the fact that the Devil was also clearly a trickster and a jerk. As you said, this is fiction, yet one wonders whether the Devil ever secretly misses God. This is why some people root for Satan in 'Paradise Lost' of course. Dante's Satan by contrast is a monument to inaction in some respects as although he sits at the centre of the Earth he does nothing and serves more of a symbolic role. 'Faust' of course makes the point that the demons carry Hell within them wherever they go and can never really escape it. I am also rarely a fan of remakes. Sometimes they work, more often than not they do not. The remake of 'Alfie' is one of the worst movies I have ever seen for example. |
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Post by iagosan on Oct 21, 2023 15:22:57 GMT
"Would you pray for demons?" No, and any Catholic that would consider it is in dire need of an understanding of basic demonology.
All of which rather begs the questions, "Who, and why, did someone select such a statement from a rather obscure figure in history and then decide to publish it in the “official guidance” relating to “A Spirituality for Sinodality” ? |
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