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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 27, 2023 19:00:07 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 27, 2023 23:30:44 GMT
Is Popey back on your legit Popes list now?
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 28, 2023 3:40:49 GMT
Is Popey back on your legit Popes list now? All I did was post the article (in the other thread). As I said, I accept him as Pope, but I do not have absolute moral certitude either way, a kind of pars tutior, if you will. And as another commentator rightly pointed out, my moral certitude, or lack thereof, is of no importance (except possibly to me). I do not, however, dismiss sedevacantists as being "out of the Church". They just differ from the mainstream as to the present status of the Chair of Peter. To use an example I've cited before, think of the Pope dying during the night, and a priest who hasn't heard the news goes to the church, vests, and offers Mass una cum, not knowing that there is no Pope. Then a parishioner comes up to him and says "Father, have you heard the news, the Pope died last night?". Or flip it the other way around. The Pope died recently, a conclave has been held, and a new Pope has been elected, the priest hasn't had the news on, repeat the scenario, he offers Mass non una cum (as is the practice during a papal interregnum). He only learns after Mass that we have a new Pope. He was in simple error as to the status of the papal chair when he offered the Mass. That's how I view sedevacantists, though their error is due to being convinced that the see is vacant for various theological and/or canonical reasons, not due to being unaware of the status of the chair.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 28, 2023 15:29:54 GMT
Is Popey back on your legit Popes list now? All I did was post the article (in the other thread). As I said, I accept him as Pope, but I do not have absolute moral certitude either way, a kind of pars tutior, if you will. And as another commentator rightly pointed out, my moral certitude, or lack thereof, is of no importance (except possibly to me). I do not, however, dismiss sedevacantists as being "out of the Church". They just differ from the mainstream as to the present status of the Chair of Peter. To use an example I've cited before, think of the Pope dying during the night, and a priest who hasn't heard the news goes to the church, vests, and offers Mass una cum, not knowing that there is no Pope. Then a parishioner comes up to him and says "Father, have you heard the news, the Pope died last night?". Or flip it the other way around. The Pope died recently, a conclave has been held, and a new Pope has been elected, the priest hasn't had the news on, repeat the scenario, he offers Mass non una cum (as is the practice during a papal interregnum). He only learns after Mass that we have a new Pope. He was in simple error as to the status of the papal chair when he offered the Mass. That's how I view sedevacantists, though their error is due to being convinced that the see is vacant for various theological and/or canonical reasons, not due to being unaware of the status of the chair. Thinking that Pope Francis isn't the pope is in itself probably not too bad. However, some sedevacantists do go too far. Some have appointed their own "pope" and some have rather strange theological views. I suspect some may be guilty of at least one of the sins of apostasy, heresy and/or schism.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 28, 2023 17:44:21 GMT
All I did was post the article (in the other thread). As I said, I accept him as Pope, but I do not have absolute moral certitude either way, a kind of pars tutior, if you will. And as another commentator rightly pointed out, my moral certitude, or lack thereof, is of no importance (except possibly to me). I do not, however, dismiss sedevacantists as being "out of the Church". They just differ from the mainstream as to the present status of the Chair of Peter. To use an example I've cited before, think of the Pope dying during the night, and a priest who hasn't heard the news goes to the church, vests, and offers Mass una cum, not knowing that there is no Pope. Then a parishioner comes up to him and says "Father, have you heard the news, the Pope died last night?". Or flip it the other way around. The Pope died recently, a conclave has been held, and a new Pope has been elected, the priest hasn't had the news on, repeat the scenario, he offers Mass non una cum (as is the practice during a papal interregnum). He only learns after Mass that we have a new Pope. He was in simple error as to the status of the papal chair when he offered the Mass. That's how I view sedevacantists, though their error is due to being convinced that the see is vacant for various theological and/or canonical reasons, not due to being unaware of the status of the chair. Thinking that Pope Francis isn't the pope is in itself probably not too bad. However, some sedevacantists do go too far. Some have appointed their own "pope" and some have rather strange theological views. I suspect some may be guilty of at least one of the sins of apostasy, heresy and/or schism. And think, during the Avignon period, there were Catholics who remained loyal to men who were not the true Pope, including one saint who name escapes me. I would not be prepared to say that those people had gone into schism. It eventually all got settled up.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 29, 2023 14:20:10 GMT
Thinking that Pope Francis isn't the pope is in itself probably not too bad. However, some sedevacantists do go too far. Some have appointed their own "pope" and some have rather strange theological views. I suspect some may be guilty of at least one of the sins of apostasy, heresy and/or schism. And think, during the Avignon period, there were Catholics who remained loyal to men who were not the true Pope, including one saint who name escapes me. I would not be prepared to say that those people had gone into schism. It eventually all got settled up. I believe things are a little different. First, I believe men who claimed the papacy and are now considered anti-popes had a stronger following than those who belong to sedevacantist groups and claim to be the "pope". Secondly, modern day sedevacantist groups with a claimant to the papacy are general ignored by the majority. I doubt they'll be listed as anti-popes by the historians of the future.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 29, 2023 18:20:36 GMT
And think, during the Avignon period, there were Catholics who remained loyal to men who were not the true Pope, including one saint who name escapes me. I would not be prepared to say that those people had gone into schism. It eventually all got settled up. I believe things are a little different. First, I believe men who claimed the papacy and are now considered anti-popes had a stronger following than those who belong to sedevacantist groups and claim to be the "pope". Secondly, modern day sedevacantist groups with a claimant to the papacy are general ignored by the majority. I doubt they'll be listed as anti-popes by the historians of the future. But at that point it just becomes a question of numbers. The principle of sedevacantism being an error as to the status of the Chair of Peter still remains. (And sedevacantists would say the same of sedeplenists, that they are the ones who are in error.) Thought experiment here: let's say that in the next conclave --- don't ask me how this would happen --- someone like ViganĂ² would be elected Pope (let's call him Pius XIII just for fun). He rescinds Vatican II and restores the Tridentine Latin Mass as the sole Mass of the Roman Church (leaving exceptions such as the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites in place). There is, at least on an academic level, some cloud over the circumstances of his election, some canonical irregularity, even though the faithful, in some huge display of docility (again, don't ask me how that would happen either), overwhelmingly hail him as Pope and recognize him as such. Some progressives even go so far as to say that denying Vatican II is heresy. Do you suppose that maybe, just maybe, those same progressives would try to construct a case for him never having been Pope in the first place (due to those irregularities) or having fallen into heresy for putting Vatican II through the shredder? Not going to happen, but it would then be a case of someone else's ox being gored.
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Post by iagosan on Oct 30, 2023 6:47:43 GMT
Yet curiously, he has failed to discipline the German bishops who have advocated (and indeed promoted) this nonsense. It is very reminiscent of the tactic used by modernists to introduce communion in the hand. i.e. Certain priests introduce the practice, his sympathetic bishop fails to discipline him, and the Vatican fails to discipline either. It then gains traction, becomes "the norm" and too established to stamp out, and as the British say "Bob`s your uncle!" i.e. it is settled. "Yet the pontiff never really wanted it but will now permit it to maintain pastoral care"...... Q E D
The moral of this story is as old as time : "Note not what they say, but what they do" (or even do not do!)
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Post by tth1 on Oct 30, 2023 14:21:28 GMT
I believe things are a little different. First, I believe men who claimed the papacy and are now considered anti-popes had a stronger following than those who belong to sedevacantist groups and claim to be the "pope". Secondly, modern day sedevacantist groups with a claimant to the papacy are general ignored by the majority. I doubt they'll be listed as anti-popes by the historians of the future. But at that point it just becomes a question of numbers. The principle of sedevacantism being an error as to the status of the Chair of Peter still remains. (And sedevacantists would say the same of sedeplenists, that they are the ones who are in error.) Thought experiment here: let's say that in the next conclave --- don't ask me how this would happen --- someone like ViganĂ² would be elected Pope (let's call him Pius XIII just for fun). He rescinds Vatican II and restores the Tridentine Latin Mass as the sole Mass of the Roman Church (leaving exceptions such as the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites in place). There is, at least on an academic level, some cloud over the circumstances of his election, some canonical irregularity, even though the faithful, in some huge display of docility (again, don't ask me how that would happen either), overwhelmingly hail him as Pope and recognize him as such. Some progressives even go so far as to say that denying Vatican II is heresy. Do you suppose that maybe, just maybe, those same progressives would try to construct a case for him never having been Pope in the first place (due to those irregularities) or having fallen into heresy for putting Vatican II through the shredder? Not going to happen, but it would then be a case of someone else's ox being gored. It's more than just numbers. The anti-popes to which you referred had a significant influence. Those claiming to be the pope in sedevacantist groups do not.
I see no relevance to the point about Vigano being elected as the next pope.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 30, 2023 17:41:31 GMT
But at that point it just becomes a question of numbers. The principle of sedevacantism being an error as to the status of the Chair of Peter still remains. (And sedevacantists would say the same of sedeplenists, that they are the ones who are in error.) Thought experiment here: let's say that in the next conclave --- don't ask me how this would happen --- someone like ViganĂ² would be elected Pope (let's call him Pius XIII just for fun). He rescinds Vatican II and restores the Tridentine Latin Mass as the sole Mass of the Roman Church (leaving exceptions such as the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites in place). There is, at least on an academic level, some cloud over the circumstances of his election, some canonical irregularity, even though the faithful, in some huge display of docility (again, don't ask me how that would happen either), overwhelmingly hail him as Pope and recognize him as such. Some progressives even go so far as to say that denying Vatican II is heresy. Do you suppose that maybe, just maybe, those same progressives would try to construct a case for him never having been Pope in the first place (due to those irregularities) or having fallen into heresy for putting Vatican II through the shredder? Not going to happen, but it would then be a case of someone else's ox being gored. It's more than just numbers. The anti-popes to which you referred had a significant influence. Those claiming to be the pope in sedevacantist groups do not.
I see no relevance to the point about Vigano being elected as the next pope.
I was just using that to depict how "pope-sifting" could go either way. In such a nightmare (for progressives) scenario, I find it hard to believe that if there were some way to challenge a reactionary papacy like that (even on purely canonical grounds, such as alleged fraud, duress, or other such connivance as could invalidate a papal election), those on the aggrieved side would turn a deaf ear to it --- "oh, well, universal acceptance". Again, a question of whose ox is being gored.
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