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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 19:41:35 GMT
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Post by niceatheist on Dec 21, 2020 19:54:29 GMT
You're last paragraph sounds childeshly selfish, even petulant. I expect better than that. And in my area, where physical distancing can be guaranteed, a business may remain open, but churches, theaters and gyms have pretty much shut down. Do you believe In a forgiving god, or one who demands blind adherence to ritual regardless of consequences to others? Hurling insults like this shows 3 things IMO, 1) Your ignorance in regards to Catholicism and the Sacraments. 2) Your ignorance to some degree in regards to the Pandemic and COVID 19 including the measures taken in various Countries to combat it and 3) Your insecurities and fear due to the fearmongering of COVID 19 from our propaganda.
1) In regards to Catholicism, Sacraments such as the Holy Eucharist and Confession cannot be had at home, so if it were serious enough, one would have to make a perfect act of contrition and spiritual communion at home until they can receive these sacraments in person again, it is not something that is done lightly at all and certainly not something permanent. If essential services can operate with precautions then so can the Mass, this is not some Gym or Theater, and it is very insulting to compare them to such things, the Mass is absolutely an essential service and to deem on a whim from those who are not even Catholic that it's a non essential service (or of little importance) and thus easily shut down is indeed a persecution. Just as the Soviets and other Atheist regimes persecuted Christians for they couldn't care less and thought it was all nonsense to be eliminated anyway.
2) In regards to this Pandemic, at first when we didn't know much about the virus the lockdowns were warranted for a short time, and even then there were ways to continue Mass in very limited numbers and spread out etc but once we learned more about it we learned of not only the contradictory and ineffective nature in which many of these restrictions have been enacted but that the virus itself has a 98.56% survival rate at worst (That's the worst statistic from the CDC) and now it's more like 99 something percent, add to that the totally unscientific suppression of effective treatments such as the Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc and Anitbiotics combo and the fact that heavily locked down States have performed no different and even worse to the others and there are so many other reasons I could list, and this attempt of emotional blackmail to control others through ones own fears and insecurities fails spectacularly IMO.
If one feels it's too dangerous to go to Mass with reasonable precautions, why do they think it's safe to go Grocery shopping or any number of other things? If it's so dangerous they are free to stay home or not hold a Mass, but it is totally unjust to prevent others from going to Mass or holding a Mass who wish to, this would be like preventing everyone from driving until there are 0 deaths or injuries on our roads, most of us just follow the road rules and drive carefully and even then we are taking a risk.
God Bless
I don't think I can, in the spirit of charity, respond to much of this. I'm sorry you're having a hard time, but there's only way through a pandemic that reduces the number of sick and dead, and that's to prevent, as much as possible, large public gatherings. There's no magic pill, and for myself, as an atheist, I don't feel your need as keenly, though I imagine if there is a God up there somewhere, it's not his will that you endanger others.
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Post by niceatheist on Dec 21, 2020 19:56:51 GMT
You're last paragraph sounds childeshly selfish, even petulant. I expect better than that. And in my area, where physical distancing can be guaranteed, a business may remain open, but churches, theaters and gyms have pretty much shut down. I thought about it some more. Let me ask you something: Is it loving your neighbor when your neighbor isn't allowed to go work to pay the bills? Is it loving your neighbor when your neighbor when they're forced to dissolve their business? I don't think it is. At a certain point we have to strike a balance. It isn't fair that politicians, sex/beer/weed shops, Big Box Stores, and Chain Restaurants are allowed to stay open and get paid while Joe Blow the electrician can't find work because of "distancing" protocols, or your local farmer can't bring his produce to the country market because his produce might have Covid, or your Doctor can't see you to renew your prescription that you depend on to live. That's not neighborly, it's twisted. The US Congress has just passed a major bill that will hopefully alleviate at least some financial stress. In my countries, benefits have been rolled out so that people can pay their bills. As to business dissolving, yes, that's going to happen, and it is unfortunate, but that doesn't abrogate all our shared responsibility to keep each other safe. In countries like Sweden where lock downs were not instituted, there has been no great economic miracle, and it's bad enough in Sweden that the King has made a rare public statement admonishing the Swedish government for its no-lock down policy, which has had Sweden have some of the highest death rates in Europe, but no better economic performance than its neighbors who did institute lockdowns. Tell me, do you believe God will punish you for trying to keep others safe, because you temporarily cannot partake of the Sacraments? Is your God a loving God, or one that demands you behave in an uncharitable fashion towards others. That doesn't sound like the God the Gospel described.
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 21, 2020 23:12:16 GMT
I'm sorry you're having a hard time, but there's only way through a pandemic that reduces the number of sick and dead, and that's to prevent, as much as possible, large public gatherings. There's no magic pill, and for myself, as an atheist, I don't feel your need as keenly, though I imagine if there is a God up there somewhere, it's not his will that you endanger others. As an atheist I understand you don't feel our need as keenly, that's understandable, what is not understandable is when such people hold positions of power and mandate such things, shutting the Church down with no qualms likening them to Gyms and Theaters.
But this always happens when big government is seen as the answer to all our problems and the people are treated as ignorant fools and untrustworthy, people who have no idea about entire regions are mandating nonsense that harms the citizens far more then it could ever help. As for Government handouts, this obviously cannot last, the private sector which has been shut down pays for all of that, and of course, when you crush the private sector, and bolster the few monopolies in bed with government (essential services, considered too big to fail, just like the big banks who get away with murder), then get everyone else dependent on Government handouts.... welcome to Communism and Dictatorship.
Next after having shut everyone down and made reliant on Government handouts, they'll start dictating more and more holding the people to ransom with these handouts and fear (second wave etc), which again cannot last which ties right into the great reset and their radical authoritarian agenda which will pale in comparison to Nazism and Communism of the previous generation if they are successful.
I bet they are kicking themselves that they ever pushed this Climate Change nonsense for as long as they did, the Pandemic has been far more successful, Bill Gates can't hold back the smile on his face as he talks about a second wave and lock downs to 2022 (which anyone who thinks it will end there, is a complete fool).
And like I said before, this is all being done while the death rate is less then 99. something percent and there are highly effective treatments being completely and unscientifically suppressed.
"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."
God Bless
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 21, 2020 23:35:21 GMT
Further more I don't think it's very neighborly to treat everyone as if they are lepers. Good point, the propaganda has got them treating even healthy people like lepers.
God Bless You
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 22, 2020 0:05:42 GMT
there's only way through a pandemic that reduces the number of sick and dead, and that's to prevent, as much as possible, large public gatherings. lol if only it were just large public gatherings, there are only a handful of people spread out every second pew and even then there are pews spare at the Church I attend, I'm totally fine with eliminating large public gatherings, so why on earth would we shut down small businesses and funnel everyone through the one large grocery store deemed an 'essential service'? Oh and to add insult to injury, remember when there were crowds shoulder to shoulder with BLM protestors, rioters and looters? Yea they don't spread it because they have a worthy cause but the small business and a handful of people socially distanced at Church are killing us all lol.
God Bless
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2020 0:30:46 GMT
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 22, 2020 1:06:25 GMT
And at this point, this has gone beyond temporary. Why do the small ones have to closed but Jeff Bezos gets to line his pockets with more money? That's not unfortunate, that's an attack on Small Business owners and their family. It's sick. Amen, 2 week incubation period at worst, yet over 6 weeks of the harshest lock downs in the Country in Victoria Australia and they have the worst results out of every State, no coincidence that the Premier is of the left, both tyrant and hero, like firefighter arsonists IMO.
It's just sad IMO when useful idiots support candidates such as Biden/Harris thinking they are for the little guy, blind to the fact that the super wealthy and powerful who just got more wealthy and powerful support that same ticket. Then again I'm sure that election was rigged with all the evidence and statistical impossibilities I've seen now, and even Trump's lot have foolishly gone in for a radically new, rushed experimental mRNA Vaccine, so it will be interesting to see what happens, either way 'Jesus, I Trust in You' and while evil forces scheme against us, God has His plans too.
God Bless You
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2020 5:52:16 GMT
niceatheist Spiritual health > physical health. That's not to say we should throw precaution to the wind. That would, indeed, be selfish. But for us Eastern Christians, the Liturgy isn't something we "do". It's how we live our faith. Communing with God is far more important to one's eternal salvation than having a strip club or bowling alley open.
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Post by ralfy on Dec 23, 2020 3:21:25 GMT
Even in Catholic countries like the Philippines, most don't take risks because the average monthly income is US$300 but the cost of two weeks of hospitalization can reach US$20,000. And that doesn't include the cost of long COVID, e.g., long-term effects, major internal damage to organs, etc.
And there's very little by way of social amelioration, e.g., at best $125 every few months. The welfare that citizens in industrialized country complain about people in developing economies can only imagine.
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 23, 2020 4:59:21 GMT
Spiritual health > physical health. And even then, the propaganda knows my weak spot as I definitely don't want to get sick with COVID, but at the same time I have to combat my fears because this is exactly what the elites are using to manipulate the ignorant masses, and I would much rather take my chances with a 99. something survival rate then be locked away only to get it anyway (as has happened with all these places that have harsh lockdowns... people still have to eat and trade etc) with the added suffering of being denied the sacraments.
Add to that this radically new mRNA Vaccine, under operation "Warp Speed" with "Emergency Approvals" and no way, no way, no way! I'll take my chances for sure, a 99. something survival rate versus a rushed, radically new experimental Vaccine that is in the realm of Genetic Editing with synthetic mRNA and no long term results and the ignorant masses are running toward the Vaccine lol it's insane, and the more this has gone on the more clear the agenda has become, at first people were going along with it, but now it's clear there is an agenda at play, like I mentioned before, Bill Gates and his ilk can't hide the smile on their faces as they talk about infectiousness, death rates, second waves and more lock downs... and they have the ability to release second waves, just like a computer virus that they will sell us the solution to of course.
I pray our Lord thwarts their wicked plans.
"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."
God Bless You
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2020 5:04:57 GMT
josh987654321 I hear you bro. I'm very nervous about the vaccine. Seems there are more people complaining of adverse reactions (though everything I've read suggests they are mild and fleeting). But there just hasn't been enough time for long term studies to see what's really going to happen to one's body, if anything, from taking this new vaccine. I don't think I'll have much choice, personally. Our school district is talking about making it mandatory for staff. I don't have my credential yet as an RBT, so I'm very likely going to have to go along in order to keep my job. I literally couldn't afford to refuse it, if my job was depending on it. Not with how expensive California has become.
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 23, 2020 5:16:35 GMT
josh987654321 I hear you bro. I'm very nervous about the vaccine. Seems there are more people complaining of adverse reactions (though everything I've read suggests they are mild and fleeting). But there just hasn't been enough time for long term studies to see what's really going to happen to one's body, if anything, from taking this new vaccine. I don't think I'll have much choice, personally. Our school district is talking about making it mandatory for staff. I don't have my credential yet as an RBT, so I'm very likely going to have to go along in order to keep my job. I literally couldn't afford to refuse it, if my job was depending on it. Not with how expensive California has become. How evil this talk of mandatory Vaccination is, please do your very best to avoid it if you can, especially if it's any of these new mRNA ones (Pfizer, Moderna etc). Remember, they need 2 doses and these reactions so far are just from the 1st dose, many severe reactions too, and even when testing these mRNA Vaccines, the animals built strong immunity at first, but then the Immune System went into over drive and gave them worse symptoms and thus killed many of them when contracting the wild virus, e.g. a new strain or similar family of covid viruses.
None of this will be known until we have long term results, and no amount of money in the world can speed that up... and yet under a year with emergency approvals and talk of mandatory, it is absolutely insane, even when we already know the old Vaccines have side effects that have been suppressed... because the "greater good" argument, never mind whether those being Vaccinated might want to know or make their own decisions or not.
I'm waiting to see what Australia does, if they approve any of these mRNA Vaccines, then out the window goes our so called "high standards" and I've pretty much lost whatever little blind faith I had left in the Vaccine industry.
Do you have any food allergies? Because if so you've got grounds to reject it if they try to mandate it citing the UK as an example who used the Pfizer jab (And Moderna's does not look good either!).
Nobody can tell me with the lock downs and economic costs on all our Nations, that this Vaccine has the highest of standards, it is such a joke and there are so many reasons not to trust it IMO. I would take Russia's Sputnik V (even though not even that has been tested anywhere near enough) before I would ever even think about touching any of these radically new mRNA Vaccines.
God Bless You
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 23, 2020 5:23:32 GMT
These mRNA Vaccines would never have got off the ground like they have without a catalyst such as this Pandemic, lock downs and resulting mass economic costs to blind people to the dozens of potential dangers.
And the fact that Pfizer, Moderna etc all have immunity from liability and are selling at $20 a pop with mass production under the 'assumption' it will work, is just the icing on the cake lol.
God Bless You
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Post by pianistclare on Dec 23, 2020 14:32:09 GMT
I'm not nervous about any vaccine. Don't see many people with polio these days. My friends in Healthcare have been the first to get vaccinated, and these uber-educated folks are not frightened. Being a church employee I MUST engage with hundreds of people each weekend and throughout the week to a lesser extent. But we have plenty in the parish who think it's all a political conspiracy and refuse to behave in a way that protects others. Meanwhile, we have lost several longtime devout parishioners to the virus. And some of those were the ones that were watching the Mass online from home. So if it's going to get you, it's going to get you. I will get the vaccination as soon as they release it for us little people.
The parishes really are scared in our area. I have fielded calls all week asking if it true that we ARE having a Midnight Mass for Christmas. Yep. Wouldn't consider cancelling such a beautiful liturgy. They ask how do they reserve a spot? Well, you drive over here, and walk in. If we can't fit you in the church (I'll bet we can) you can go to the overflow. Some have said they will watch from their devices in their cars (it will be really cold) and wait for our EMHC's to come to the door and offer them Holy Communion like they did centuries ago at Notre Dame.
People fear...but the life of the Church goes on.
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