|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Dec 7, 2023 18:18:54 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Dominic on Dec 7, 2023 23:44:17 GMT
Yes, from one of those websites that we're not supposed to like... Just read it. I did, and ... facepalm. You post an article from a notoriously antisemitic alt-right "magazine" that is basically a hit piece ranting about how the NO is not a real Mass and that NO Catholics are not real Catholics, and then you wonder why Trads have the reputation they have. To be honest, the folks at the Remnant and their readership would certainly not consider YOU to be a real Catholic, either. You really have got to stop swimming around in the cesspool in search of pearls. Spoiler: you ain't gonna find none there. On another thread you wrote that the TLM is attracting a "broader demographic". I find the opposite is true. It seems to be drawing more and more from the sort of people who read garbage like the Remnant. |
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Dec 8, 2023 4:19:55 GMT
Yes, from one of those websites that we're not supposed to like... Just read it. I did, and ... facepalm. You post an article from a notoriously antisemitic alt-right "magazine" that is basically a hit piece ranting about how the NO is not a real Mass and that NO Catholics are not real Catholics, and then you wonder why Trads have the reputation they have. To be honest, the folks at the Remnant and their readership would certainly not consider YOU to be a real Catholic, either. You really have got to stop swimming around in the cesspool in search of pearls. Spoiler: you ain't gonna find none there. On another thread you wrote that the TLM is attracting a "broader demographic". I find the opposite is true. It seems to be drawing more and more from the sort of people who read garbage like the Remnant. Facepalm is as facepalm does. I've "facepalmed" myself in recent years over such things as, oh... the assertion that Almighty God wills people to be of different religions, admitting people to Holy Communion when they are in invalid unions and do not have the intention of giving up the marital act, absolving any and all penitents "no matter what" without firm purpose of amendment where mortal sin is concerned, blessing same-sex unions in a fashion that the larger secular world would see as a de facto marriage (and which the partners would likely see the same way), the list goes on... and on... and on... I would need to know more about why The Remnant is regarded as antisemitic before I could make that call. All people, Jews included, need to accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, and to be baptized into His one true Catholic Church. On a personal note, I like and admire Jews very much --- they're an amazing people who have made innumerable contributions to academia, the arts and sciences, medicine, philanthropy, that list, too, goes on and on and on. They take care of their health, they are clean-living, they stay out of trouble (yes, I know, Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein... there are always exceptions), bring up their children to live responsibly, place a high value (and that is putting it mildly) on education, and, yes, they look out for each other --- through the centuries, they've pretty much had to. Those are all good things that we'd all do well to emulate. All they lack is Jesus Christ. As to my reading habits, I appreciate your concern, but I've got this. I read pretty much everything and make up my own mind. Whether I would pass the purity test of The Remnant's writers or readers, that's not really a concern of mine. And I'm pretty confident that anyone who reads The Remnant has already made up their mind as to whether to attend the TLM or not, and under whose auspices. The TLM I attend is drawing a larger and more diverse crowd, I can't speak for others, but that's my experience, and I'd say it's echoed elsewhere. I invite any and all to read the article in the OP, and see for yourself whether it is, indeed, "basically a hit piece ranting about how the [Novus Ordo] is not a real Mass and that [Novus Ordo] Catholics are not real Catholics". I'm not seeing it. In fact, it's really pretty tame. |
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Dec 8, 2023 10:30:08 GMT
Probably the tired old accusation of anti-Semitism is coming from the Southern Poverty Law Center considering the Remnant a hate group. If the accusation is coming from someone who is not from US and is not familiar with the checkered recent history of the SPLC and its founder and all the "issues" with its pointing its silly finger at this or that and finding more hate groups than Dale Gribble finds conspiracies, then it's a case of simple lack of background. As one who has considerable familiarity with the SPLC and used to know someone who worked there, I simply ignore the SPLC these days, and file it under "was once a good and useful organization but lost the plot a long time ago".
There are people who see anti-semitism under every bush and those who like to bash trads and those who simply like to argue and get attention, and of course in the US we have this business of the FBI getting called on the carpet for associating TLM communities and SSPX with terrorism, this in a part of the country where many people are suspicious of Catholics simply for being Catholic.
The Remnant is indeed a biased source and must be taken as such, but a simple report on a TLM community cropping up near Elysburg following the departure of the Carmelite nuns for Fairfield is benign news and has nothing to do with any -isms. They are getting together to celebrate Mass, not to commit discrimination or crime.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Dec 8, 2023 15:30:47 GMT
Probably the tired old accusation of anti-Semitism is coming from the Southern Poverty Law Center considering the Remnant a hate group. If the accusation is coming from someone who is not from US and is not familiar with the checkered recent history of the SPLC and its founder and all the "issues" with its pointing its silly finger at this or that and finding more hate groups than Dale Gribble finds conspiracies, then it's a case of simple lack of background. As one who has considerable familiarity with the SPLC and used to know someone who worked there, I simply ignore the SPLC these days, and file it under "was once a good and useful organization but lost the plot a long time ago". There are people who see anti-semitism under every bush and those who like to bash trads and those who simply like to argue and get attention, and of course in the US we have this business of the FBI getting called on the carpet for associating TLM communities and SSPX with terrorism, this in a part of the country where many people are suspicious of Catholics simply for being Catholic. The Remnant is indeed a biased source and must be taken as such, but a simple report on a TLM community cropping up near Elysburg following the departure of the Carmelite nuns for Fairfield is benign news and has nothing to do with any -isms. They are getting together to celebrate Mass, not to commit discrimination or crime. Thanks for going to bat for me. Once again, you become Grace Kelly to my Gary Cooper in a "Catholic Fight Club" version of High Noon. Must be something in the Philadelphia wooder. In the interest of letting everyone have their say, I'll reproduce here what the SPLC had to say about The Remnant and other entities that met with their disapproval: www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2007/12-anti-semitic-radical-traditionalist-catholic-groupsRead it and make up your own mind, and be sure to look into the allegations, and see what the organizations themselves had to say in response: Here is Michael Matt's response: remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/1925-the-hate-industry-loses-a-round-southern-poverty-law-center-dissed-by-far-left-city-pages |
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Dec 8, 2023 16:56:44 GMT
I'm not in love with the Remnant, but the idea that Elysburg, its diocese, or its neighboring parts of PA are somehow embroiled in anti-Semitism because people want to go to a TLM is just silly.
It's more like, as someone I know who now drives like an hour every Sunday to go to Lancaster PA Latin Mass says, they're just tired of attending "Mamas and the Papas Mass" with bouncy guitar music and priests who introduce their own personal touches into the OF liturgy.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Dec 8, 2023 17:32:04 GMT
I'm not in love with the Remnant, but the idea that Elysburg, its diocese, or its neighboring parts of PA are somehow embroiled in anti-Semitism because people want to go to a TLM is just silly. It's more like, as someone I know who now drives like an hour every Sunday to go to Lancaster PA Latin Mass says, they're just tired of attending "Mamas and the Papas Mass" with bouncy guitar music and priests who introduce their own personal touches into the OF liturgy. Even if I did not have a preference for the TLM, I'd still be seeking it out, to avoid precisely the kind of thing you describe. It's always the same and you know precisely what you're getting. Especially when traveling, you just never know with the Novus Ordo. The TLM doesn't present that problem. |
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Dec 8, 2023 18:18:02 GMT
I like to attend all kinds of Masses. I've been at TLM one day and Fr. Ponytail's Hootenanny OF the next. It keeps life interesting. I just have to be sure to take appropriate TLM clothes when I travel, although I have seen people there in shorts and t-shirts, I'd rather be more covered up so I blend in.
|
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Dec 14, 2023 4:07:05 GMT
The article argues that Catholicism is only rising among those following the EF and that the OF is connected to poor catechesis. Both points are not true.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Dec 14, 2023 4:23:41 GMT
The article argues that Catholicism is only rising among those following the EF and that the OF is connected to poor catechesis. Both points are not true. I don't think that the article argues the first point, and as to the second, the closest thing I see is this: Doug Croley, an Orwigsburg resident, concisely summed up why he makes the trek to Mount Carmel every Sunday, “The Latin Mass is God orientated, while the Novus Ordo Mass is more people orientated.” He is far from alone. Croley explained, “It is no wonder that so many polls reveal how so few today believe in the real presence of the Holy Eucharist – the pinnacle of the Mass.”I don't see any connection to "poor catechesis" here. It is always possible that those who seek out the TLM (and that's what you have to do these days, seek it out) are better-catechized to begin with. |
|
|
|
Post by blackforest on Dec 14, 2023 5:12:50 GMT
The article argues that Catholicism is only rising among those following the EF and that the OF is connected to poor catechesis. Both points are not true. I don't think that the article argues the first point, and as to the second, the closest thing I see is this: Doug Croley, an Orwigsburg resident, concisely summed up why he makes the trek to Mount Carmel every Sunday, “The Latin Mass is God orientated, while the Novus Ordo Mass is more people orientated.” He is far from alone. Croley explained, “It is no wonder that so many polls reveal how so few today believe in the real presence of the Holy Eucharist – the pinnacle of the Mass.”I don't see any connection to "poor catechesis" here. It is always possible that those who seek out the TLM (and that's what you have to do these days, seek it out) are better-catechized to begin with. Respectfully, I read the same message as Ralfy. It's in the very first sentence.
The remnant, of course, among all of those N.O. churches closing, is the TLM.
As we well know, the former are closing due to consolidation efforts by different Dioceses, not necessarily because the U.S. Catholic population is dwindling dramatically.
And there's this part:
I get a little tired of the oversimplification of blaming poor catechesis among lay Catholics squarely on V2, even under the thin veil of a word like "seemingly."
So I didn't personally care for the article or its editorializing, but the bottom line is that it conveys some positive news. If the expansion of TLM in this region is what it takes to attract Catholic and ignite the faith, all the power to them. Especially while living in a much less Catholic area than I'm used to, I'm for any expansion of Catholicism. :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Dec 14, 2023 5:28:32 GMT
I don't think that the article argues the first point, and as to the second, the closest thing I see is this: Doug Croley, an Orwigsburg resident, concisely summed up why he makes the trek to Mount Carmel every Sunday, “The Latin Mass is God orientated, while the Novus Ordo Mass is more people orientated.” He is far from alone. Croley explained, “It is no wonder that so many polls reveal how so few today believe in the real presence of the Holy Eucharist – the pinnacle of the Mass.”I don't see any connection to "poor catechesis" here. It is always possible that those who seek out the TLM (and that's what you have to do these days, seek it out) are better-catechized to begin with. Respectfully, I read the same message as Ralfy. It's in the very first sentence. Not to nitpick, but it doesn't say "only", nor does it say that all Novus Ordo parishes are failing to thrive, or to put it another way, that no Novus Ordo parishes are thriving --- some certainly are. It merely asserts that growth is taking place within the TLM. |
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Dec 15, 2023 2:21:37 GMT
It literally points out that Catholic Churches are consolidating or experiencing worse, and "there remains a segment", etc. As for the second point, look for "catechesis" in the article (use CTRL-F).
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Dec 15, 2023 8:06:40 GMT
It literally points out that Catholic Churches are consolidating or experiencing worse, and "there remains a segment", etc. As for the second point, look for "catechesis" in the article (use CTRL-F).
I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether this connects poor catechesis to the OF. I don't see it myself. I read it as merely saying that poor catechesis leaves one to see the TLM as "foreign or even distant". It doesn't say a thing about the OF. |
|
|
|
Post by crusader on Dec 15, 2023 14:57:19 GMT
There’s nothing substantially wrong with the article. The accusation of antisemitism against the remnant is absurd. Unfortunately, that kind of rhetoric results from the same “poor catechesis” the article is probably referring to.
The problem could also stem from how one interprets what constitutes “proper” catechetical instruction. For example, I’ve met many Catholics who can rattle off various Catholic prayers and tell you all about the feast days and the rubrics of the Mass. Yet, they have very little understanding of Scripture or how to properly interpret it.
And no, I’m not claiming this is unique only to attendants of the NO. What I’m saying is that, many Catholics believe that to be a good Catholic they have to prioritize Church rules and guidelines over anything else.
|
|
