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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 14, 2023 5:40:25 GMT
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Post by tisbearself on Dec 14, 2023 8:58:21 GMT
Hmm, I was just wondering what Dawn Eden Goldstein was doing with herself these days. I found a copy of "In Sinu Jesu", the book by the Silverstream Priory abbot who was allegedly abusing the monks under him, on the free giveaway table at a local church (where they also leave books like "Two from Galilee" and the complete works of Henri Nouwen) and remembered that Dawn Eden went on an extended bash/ expose of "In Sinu Jesu" when it came out. Haven't yet had time to read it and see what all the fuss was about. It may well be a good book despite its author being a bit warped, similar to Fr Jackson's book on the Mass.
Anyway I read that CNN article mostly to see how many paragraphs it took before they worked Trump into the story since CNN's stock in trade has been all Trump bashing, all the time, for years now. I used to use them as my go-to news site but quit because I got sick of having Trump for breakfast, lunch and dinner, there's a lot of other news going on out there. Sure enough it didn't take them long to get Trump and Burke into the same sentence. Ho hum.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 14, 2023 17:32:23 GMT
Hmm, I was just wondering what Dawn Eden Goldstein was doing with herself these days. I found a copy of "In Sinu Jesu", the book by the Silverstream Priory abbot who was allegedly abusing the monks under him, on the free giveaway table at a local church (where they also leave books like "Two from Galilee" and the complete works of Henri Nouwen) and remembered that Dawn Eden went on an extended bash/ expose of "In Sinu Jesu" when it came out. Haven't yet had time to read it and see what all the fuss was about. It may well be a good book despite its author being a bit warped, similar to Fr Jackson's book on the Mass. Anyway I read that CNN article mostly to see how many paragraphs it took before they worked Trump into the story since CNN's stock in trade has been all Trump bashing, all the time, for years now. I used to use them as my go-to news site but quit because I got sick of having Trump for breakfast, lunch and dinner, there's a lot of other news going on out there. Sure enough it didn't take them long to get Trump and Burke into the same sentence. Ho hum. Yes, CNN suffers from a very obvious case of Trump Derangement Syndrome. I don't know what they are going to do, if the people actually re-elect him in 2024. I really don't think traditionalist Catholic sympathies can be conflated with support for Trump. If he is the nominee in 2024 --- and likely he will be --- I will only be supporting him (or any Republican candidate for that matter) because of abortion, and more to the point, the President's function of nominating Supreme Court Justices (and, to a lesser extent, other Federal judges). I am a single-issue voter out of sheer necessity. I normally vote in Democratic primaries to cast one vote for "the least bad option", but this year, I'm of a mind to switch and vote in the GOP primary (my state allows this) to support Nikki Haley, who is an entirely competent stateswoman and who could most likely win, if the choice were between her and Biden. She presses all the right buttons --- a woman, a person of color (though this isn't obvious unless one is told), from a Global South background, not eaten up with old age, attractive, articulate, charming, a bit of sass --- and I imagine the Democrats would give anything to have a candidate who could press the same cluster of buttons. (Sorry, Madam Vice President, despite sharing many of these things, you just ain't got it.) |
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Post by ralfy on Dec 15, 2023 2:39:18 GMT
I think the Papacy has been facing what is essentially a secular world. That means even with the point that no one is superior to the Pope various members of the U.S. clergy have taken the modern step of challenging that view.
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Post by blackforest on Dec 15, 2023 14:53:36 GMT
My own impression is that CNN, never a friend to Catholicism, is licking its chops at the polarization within the Church. This is a spectator sport to thm. To Homeschool Dad's first question, I think this papacy is occurring within a broader cultural context of increasing divisiveness, political and otherwise. So it may have less to do with Pope Francis specifically than with overall changes in the culture at large. We may unfortunately see similar trends with a future Pope, regardless of who that is. I can't remember who phrased it this way (Bishop Barron, maybe?) but it may be a reflection of of allowing politics to inform one's faith, rather than the other way around.
It's hard to say how many Catholic Trump-voters were all-out Trads enthused by the entire MAGA agenda or just reluctant pro-lifers who would otherwise vote Democratic or independently. Secular outfits like Pew are completely clueless and uninformed about such nuance.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 15, 2023 18:27:13 GMT
My own impression is that CNN, never a friend to Catholicism, is licking its chops at the polarization within the Church. This is a spectator sport to thm. To Homeschool Dad's first question, I think this papacy is occurring within a broader cultural context of increasing divisiveness, political and otherwise. So it may have less to do with Pope Francis specifically than with overall changes in the culture at large. We may unfortunately see similar trends with a future Pope, regardless of who that is. I can't remember who phrased it this way (Bishop Barron, maybe?) but it may be a reflection of of allowing politics to inform one's faith, rather than the other way around. It's hard to say how many Catholic Trump-voters were all-out Trads enthused by the entire MAGA agenda or just reluctant pro-lifers who would otherwise vote Democratic or independently. Secular outfits like Pew are completely clueless and uninformed about such nuance. I'm far from being "enthused by the entire MAGA agenda". I am basically a single-issue voter, viz. abortion. My first question was largely a rhetorical one. The papacy of Francis is very, very different from any before it. He gives the appearance of wanting to change key Catholic teachings (receiving communion while in an invalid marriage that is not a "Josephite" one and in which the partners have no intention of moving towards such a marriage, the diversity of religions being willed by Almighty God, no firm purpose of amendment required for absolution from mortal sin, and so on) and that is disturbing to many. The TLM issue, to be fair, is at its root simply a return (and a more liberal one at that) to what Paul VI originally intended, but the only problem is, you have many Catholics who have discovered the TLM and are not of the largely docile mindset of Catholics in 1969 --- "we don't necessarily like the New Mass, but it's what the Church requires, so we have to go along with it", or "we've been told we are supposed to like the New Mass, so we'll change our thinking because that's what the Church wants". (Keep in mind, too, that back then, some Catholics simply quit going to Mass due to the discontinuance of the TLM.) It's not a political thing. |
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Post by blackforest on Dec 15, 2023 19:59:20 GMT
Oh, certainly - I've gathered from previous interactions with you that you're not a black-and-white thinker.
Polarization isn't strictly political. It can most definitely be religious. It even happens in HOA board meetings when debating how someone painted their house. For various reasons, polarization of all stripes has been on the rise in our culture. I'm just saying that it can be hard to tease out which is which (religious or political), or whether or not they're interrelated, because mainstream poll sources proclaiming religious expertise actually don't fully understand Catholicism.
My background is traditional Anglican, so I'm more of a sympathizer with trad liturgy. When I joined the Catholic Church, I was pretty blown away by a lot of the O.F. stuff, lol! The trad scene here (at least) **is** unfortunately (and unnecessarily) political.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 15, 2023 23:35:25 GMT
Oh, certainly - I've gathered from previous interactions with you that you're not a black-and-white thinker.
Polarization isn't strictly political. It can most definitely be religious. It even happens in HOA board meetings when debating how someone painted their house. For various reasons, polarization of all stripes has been on the rise in our culture. I'm just saying that it can be hard to tease out which is which (religious or political), or whether or not they're interrelated, because mainstream poll sources proclaiming religious expertise actually don't fully understand Catholicism.
My background is traditional Anglican, so I'm more of a sympathizer with trad liturgy. When I joined the Catholic Church, I was pretty blown away by a lot of the O.F. stuff, lol! The trad scene here (at least) **is** unfortunately (and unnecessarily) political.
No, indeed I am not. Black-and-white thinking is the refuge of those who want to cancel discussion and have everyone blindly following their way. There are certain moral absolutes, and some epistemological things that are absolutely true, but that shouldn't discourage discussion of them. The result is a stronger faith and a stronger reason to adhere to it. I deeply admire the traditional (1928 and before) liturgy of the Anglicans, and it serves as an exemplar of what a vernacular Mass can and should look like. I've never assisted at an Ordinariate Mass, but it is definitely on my bucket list of things to do. But I don't see the traditional Catholic scene here in the US as being overtly political. True, the people it attracts tend to be right-of-center in their politics, but they bring that with them coming in, and they'd be the same regardless of which Mass they attended. I see it as apples and oranges. |
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Post by tisbearself on Dec 16, 2023 16:19:27 GMT
More assumptions about a "trad scene" from people who don't actually go to TLM.
Reminds me about the assumptions about the "punk scene" from people who only watched a Phil Donahue show about it.
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Post by ralfy on Dec 17, 2023 3:24:29 GMT
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Post by blackforest on Dec 17, 2023 16:36:01 GMT
Oh, certainly - I've gathered from previous interactions with you that you're not a black-and-white thinker.
Polarization isn't strictly political. It can most definitely be religious. It even happens in HOA board meetings when debating how someone painted their house. For various reasons, polarization of all stripes has been on the rise in our culture. I'm just saying that it can be hard to tease out which is which (religious or political), or whether or not they're interrelated, because mainstream poll sources proclaiming religious expertise actually don't fully understand Catholicism.
My background is traditional Anglican, so I'm more of a sympathizer with trad liturgy. When I joined the Catholic Church, I was pretty blown away by a lot of the O.F. stuff, lol! The trad scene here (at least) **is** unfortunately (and unnecessarily) political.
But I don't see the traditional Catholic scene here in the US as being overtly political. True, the people it attracts tend to be right-of-center in their politics, but they bring that with them coming in, and they'd be the same regardless of which Mass they attended. I see it as apples and oranges. I think we can shake hands and agree that trad Mass attendance should center around liturgical preference and not function as any political movement or center around political ideology. Since I'm feeling somewhat pressed to elaborate, I'm on a crude listserv-type group with some local trads, (non-trads post there, too), and have attended some in-person get-togethers. They are very, very much part of an ideological clubhouse. You can take my word for it or not, and it's the most I'm going to say without compromising anyone's anonymity. I don't know if that's unique to here or seen elsewhere. The bottom line is that I'm glad you've found a a more level-headed scene in your region. |
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Post by ralfy on Dec 18, 2023 1:40:45 GMT
"Traditional" has different definitions in other parts of the Catholic world, e.g., one refers to praying the novena and the rosary, attending the Missa de Gallo and participating in the pasion, using songs from the nineteenth century and accompanied by an organ (but only if available), attending religious feasts including processions, using old copies of prayer books, Missals, and the Bible, and daily evangelization, including teaching catechism to children. And that's beside attending Mass regularly, where the perils of eternal damnation are frequently mentioned in homilies.
Politically, it's sometimes connected to fierce nationalism (the vernacular language is used often, and preferably in its purest sense, i.e., without code switching) and definitely anti-Communism, as well as maintaining the social order of the richest acting as godparents to the poorest, and new trends in media and consumerism avoided. Foreigners are generally not trusted, especially if it's a former colony and outsiders come from what are considered "liberal" countries; the parish priest is considered the equivalent of the town mayor, and the town Church and not the hall is considered the bulwark of the community. Finally, mass media and broad learning are frowned upon, and corporal punishment part of family living.
Economically, it's driven by poverty, if not the equivalent of nineteenth-century living, with an emphasis on agricultural subsistence and whatever limited manufacturing needed to meet basic needs. Finally, the poverty takes place not out of choice; as younger people learn and earn more, they leave the towns for the cities, and in time the population in the community starts aging.
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