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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 22, 2023 7:09:08 GMT
I'm starting this thread as a kind of experiment. Going forward, I would like to see all arguments in favor of the Church's present liturgical discipline channeled into a single thread, so that advocates of the present regulations can make their arguments, and present them here for the reader either to accept in toto, to accept in part, or to reject. I'm going to be pinning this thread to the top of the Liturgy and Sacraments sub-forum, so it can remain "front and center". I have in mind such subject areas as: - Whether the permissions of Popes St John Paul II and Benedict XVI were intended only for certain groups, such that people who don't fall into these groups really shouldn't be seeking out and assisting at the EF (even though that's precisely what is happening)
- How strictly the provisions of Traditionis custodes should be enforced, and whether bishops who fall short of that should be corrected in some fashion (all bishops have an email address, why not send these observations to them, and implore them to follow them?)
- How those who adhere to the EF (Traditional Latin Mass or TLM) should respond to TC
- How the present permissions for the EF can be reconciled with Sacrosanctum concilium
This list is not all-exhaustive. Again, this is just an experiment. Let's see how it goes. I'm not going to engage in endless point/counter-point, which resolves nothing. I may, at my discretion, move extended arguments going forward, made in other threads, into this thread (arguments up to this point will remain where they are, "grandfathered in", so to speak).
So have at it. Pax et bonum!
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Post by ralfy on Dec 26, 2023 12:11:33 GMT
"ECCLESIA DEI" July 2, 1988 www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei.html"POPE AUTHORIZES LIMITED USE OF LATIN MASS BANNED IN '63" www.nytimes.com/1984/10/16/world/pope-authorizes-limited-use-of-latin-mass-banned-in-63.html"LETTER OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI TO THE BISHOPS ON THE OCCASION OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE APOSTOLIC LETTER "MOTU PROPRIO DATA" SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM ON THE USE OF THE ROMAN LITURGY PRIOR TO THE REFORM OF 1970" July 7, 1007 "APOSTOLIC LETTER ISSUED 'MOTU PROPRIO' BY THE SUPREME PONTIFF FRANCIS, «TRADITIONIS CUSTODES», On the Use of the Roman Liturgy Prior to the Reform of 1970" July 16, 2021 www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/motu_proprio/documents/20210716-motu-proprio-traditionis-custodes.html"RESPONSA AD DUBIA on certain provisions of the Apostolic Letter TRADITIONIS CUSTODES issued 'Motu Proprio' by the Supreme Pontiff FRANCIS" www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20211204_responsa-ad-dubia-tradizionis-custodes_en.htmlPut simply, Pope St. John Paul II allowed the EF with restrictions in order to maintain unity with the SPPX, with a Commission formed to guide the latter. Pope Benedict XVI advised the faithful to continue the same, and for Bishops to share their experiences concerning this three years after. Finally, Pope Francis reports that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, based on consultation with Bishops in 2020 and following Pope Benedict XVI's advice, has advised him to establish the ff. points given in the TC. The Congregation clarifies various points in a subsequent document.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 26, 2023 14:02:18 GMT
Where is the smiley for eating popcorn?
You are doing, what we in the UK, would say, "is opening a can of worms".
I hope this thread can at least remain charitable.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 26, 2023 16:51:52 GMT
Where is the smiley for eating popcorn?
You are doing, what we in the UK, would say, "is opening a can of worms".
I hope this thread can at least remain charitable. No, no, this is fine, commentary such as appears above, is precisely why I opened this thread and put a "sticky" on it, so that it will remain near the top and not get lost in a river of subsequent threads. Anyone who wishes to defend the Church's present liturgical discipline, have at it, make your best arguments, cite whatever you like. That's what this thread is here for. I am considering creating a similar thread, "stickied" in the same fashion, challenging the Church's liturgical decisions since Vatican II, but those sources are so legion, that the best thing would probably be to provide links, but for right now, the existing thread will probably suffice. There is so much out there --- Michael Davies, the SSPX's various writings, Fr James Wathen, Fr Anthony Cekada (with sedevacantists, as with anyone else, it is always possible to "take the meat and leave the bones", agreeing with an author on this point or that, doesn't have to entail agreeing with that author on everything), and others too numerous to attempt to list.
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Post by ralfy on Dec 26, 2023 23:19:44 GMT
Where is the smiley for eating popcorn?
You are doing, what we in the UK, would say, "is opening a can of worms".
I hope this thread can at least remain charitable.
This issue has been known since the late 1980s.
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