|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jun 6, 2021 0:08:16 GMT
... if they don't make a distinction between mortal and venial sin?
I know the Eastern Christian approach is more mystical than legalistic, I get that, I respect that. But unless there is a big bright line --- (1) grave matter, or what I call (and traditional catechisms call) "the act in itself being mortally sinful", (2) sufficient reflection, i.e., you are sufficiently aware that it is mortally sinful, and (3) full consent of the will, i.e., you fully want and intend to do it --- doesn't that get in the way of judging oneself worthy to receive the Eucharist?
I'm also making the assumption that Eastern Rite Catholics view sin, and its gradations, similar to the way Orthodox do, i.e., that they either have not "Latinized" their thinking, or if they once did, they have thrown off this particular "Latinization" in the wake of Vatican II. That assumption may be wrong. Someone let me know one way or the other.
In the Western Church, I have long been concerned that we are morphing into a tripartite division of sin, (1) venial, (2) mortal, and (3) "grave, but not mortal", IOW, no doubt about it, what you did was grave matter, you knew it, and you wanted to do it, but still, it doesn't rise to the level of severing your friendship with Almighty God. Given this, "grave" deliberate sexual sins, such as contraception, living together and having sex before marriage, "remarrying" and living conjugally in an invalid marriage, entering into an invalid marriage in the first place, and even homosexual acts that "come naturally" to those with that affliction --- all could fall under the description of "...but I have to commit this sin", not impairment of full willful consent, but having a life situation (usually a marital or sexual one) that requires living in unrepented "grave" sin. That is not traditional Catholic moral theology. The two types of sin, mortal and venial, those are traditional Catholic moral theology.
I've noticed, since about 1980 or so, a huge bashfulness about using the term "mortal sin". The various examinations of conscience started calling it "serious" sin for a time, then somehow, the term "grave" sin came into vogue (though it's always been used, interchangeably with "mortal"), and it's stayed that way. Your friendship with God is either severed, or it is not severed.
But back to the point, how do Eastern Christians see it?
And I cannot post this question without bringing up something very, very important. I have found, in the CAF days, that there is a false notion afoot among some well-meaning Catholics, that "any sin against the Ten Commandments is a 'grave' sin". That is not true. Deplorable though they are, there can be deliberate venial sins of lying, stealing (a small item), uncharity, and even blasphemy (such as that certain stripe of person who can't open their mouth without saying "godd**n"). The Church has never taught that all deliberate sins against the Ten Commandments are grave or mortally sinful. My son has even told me that a similar notion was taught in his school, which may eventually mean my having a sit-down talk with that parish's pastor, and asking him why those children are being taught such things. I really do think that "conservative Novus Ordo" people, in their misguided zeal, get a little carried away sometimes. With the catechetical crisis of the past half-century, no wonder people are falling into such errors.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 7:14:24 GMT
I think your third category of "grave, but not mortal" cuts to the heart of refuting your own emphasis on the strength of the Roman position. If sin is as black and white and clear cut as trad circles present, then there would be no need for your third category. Every Roman Catholic would simply know. The Eastern Catholic approach is the same as the Eastern Orthodox approach and has always been that way. This isn't about disciplines being forced on us at various times by Roman Churches. This cuts to the heart of our theology. I'd like to share a link with you for the Ukranian Catholic Church's catechism "Christ our Pascha". It's the catechism for the particular Ukranian Church, but is used as a guideline by most Eastern Catholics I know. It's not necessarily a full and faithful representation of ALL Eastern Catholic Churches approach in thinking (less so for the Oriental Catholic Churches who have their own oriental flavors, so to speak). But this will get you a strong idea of how the East thinks and lives their Holy Catholic faith. catechism.royaldoors.net/catechism/ |
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jun 7, 2021 21:48:44 GMT
I think your third category of "grave, but not mortal" cuts to the heart of refuting your own emphasis on the strength of the Roman position. If sin is as black and white and clear cut as trad circles present, then there would be no need for your third category. Every Roman Catholic would simply know. The Eastern Catholic approach is the same as the Eastern Orthodox approach and has always been that way. This isn't about disciplines being forced on us at various times by Roman Churches. This cuts to the heart of our theology. I'd like to share a link with you for the Ukranian Catholic Church's catechism "Christ our Pascha". It's the catechism for the particular Ukranian Church, but is used as a guideline by most Eastern Catholics I know. It's not necessarily a full and faithful representation of ALL Eastern Catholic Churches approach in thinking (less so for the Oriental Catholic Churches who have their own oriental flavors, so to speak). But this will get you a strong idea of how the East thinks and lives their Holy Catholic faith. catechism.royaldoors.net/catechism/Thanks for providing this. Would you be able to direct me to any specific section that attempts to describe what kind of sin separates one from the grace of God, and what kind of sin, while still a transgression of God's Will and thus to be despised, doesn't have these eternal consequences?
Let me be clear that "grave but not mortal" is not something I endorse. Rather, it's a modern tendency, more implicit than explicit, to downplay that even the sins that have become part of so many people's lives in our times, could result in losing one's salvation, and in this life, make us unworthy of the sacraments until those sins are repented and broken with.
We need once again to speak of mortal sin, speak of it often, and define precisely what it is. If the Eastern Church doesn't do this, then I have to wonder if there is any way they "draw a line". Not knowing precisely when one has lost the grace of God, and when one hasn't lost it, could lead to crippling scrupulosity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 2:39:25 GMT
homeschooldad The thing is, you are thinking purely in latin terms. The Eastern Churches don't put as much stock in categorizing sin, as such. There is certainly recognition that some sins are more grave than others, but ultimately all sins lead us astray and separate us from God. As such, all sins need confessing and contrition. This link goes to the Byzantine Catholic forum (a great source of information if you want to join, though I'll warn you in advance it's a very slow moving forum. Any post you make will likely take 1-3 days before you start getting responses) where this very topic is discussed, so you can see a bit of back and forth about it and different view points to consider. www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50409/Mortal_and_Venial_Sin
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 2:40:44 GMT
homeschooldad I wish the Eastern Catholic Churches worked together to run an Apostolate like Catholic Answers that could put out articles and tracts giving quick but meaty answers to a lot of questions pertaining specifically to Eastern Catholicism, Eastern theology, spirituality, etc. No such luck as of yet. The closest I found is the Byzantine forum. Beyond that, it's always a good idea to go to an Eastern priest directly.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jun 9, 2021 1:04:10 GMT
homeschooldad The thing is, you are thinking purely in latin terms. The Eastern Churches don't put as much stock in categorizing sin, as such. There is certainly recognition that some sins are more grave than others, but ultimately all sins lead us astray and separate us from God. As such, all sins need confessing and contrition. This link goes to the Byzantine Catholic forum (a great source of information if you want to join, though I'll warn you in advance it's a very slow moving forum. Any post you make will likely take 1-3 days before you start getting responses) where this very topic is discussed, so you can see a bit of back and forth about it and different view points to consider. www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50409/Mortal_and_Venial_Sin This is an excellent resource and I enjoyed reading it. I cannot fit "yet one more forum" into my life right now, with all that is going on, but I will bookmark this page.
They touch upon one very important point. As Bishop Sheen's penitent said, as a practical matter, I really don't draw much of a line between mortal and venial sin. Mortal sin is unthinkable --- you're given a list, as we Latins would think of it, and then you just don't do those things. It's not rocket science. As for venial sin, that, too, is abhorrent. Even though I have done so in my horrible past, I cannot now even imagine of saying "it's only a deliberate venial sin". Doubtless I commit them in spite of myself, but I do not want to. As for sins of the flesh --- the sins most people have the most problems with --- I can only say that, after almost 15 years of having been forced to live celibate due to divorce with no annulment, it was a very difficult adjustment, but here 15 years out (and at age 60), I have come to enjoy bachelor life immensely, and even if I had the annulment (which may never happen), it really wouldn't be a priority for me. Obviously others' mileages can and do vary.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 5:29:04 GMT
homeschooldad Agreed. There's probably situations where categorizing sins can be beneficial. Perhaps in instruction of newcomers to the faith, it might help in some way? I try to think of it from what I consider to be the safest and surest way of all. Detest all sin that separates me from my Lord and Savior. It need not matter whether it's "grave" "mortal" "venial" etc. If it doesn't damn me outright, it gets me started down that path. So it's better to just confess all my shortcomings and failings and focus on placing myself in God's far more capable hands.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jun 9, 2021 6:44:35 GMT
homeschooldad Agreed. There's probably situations where categorizing sins can be beneficial. Perhaps in instruction of newcomers to the faith, it might help in some way? I try to think of it from what I consider to be the safest and surest way of all. Detest all sin that separates me from my Lord and Savior. It need not matter whether it's "grave" "mortal" "venial" etc. If it doesn't damn me outright, it gets me started down that path. So it's better to just confess all my shortcomings and failings and focus on placing myself in God's far more capable hands. Extremely well-put, you reflect my thoughts entirely. Any deliberate sin, committed without the slightest hint of passion, is a sign of a depraved heart that will eventually slide into mortal sin, given enough time and enough such sins. As you so well put, it gets you started down that path. Snapping at that driver who cut you off, and using vivid language in a momentary fit of pique, is one thing. Making up your mind that you're going to lie about your son's age to get him a discount at the theater, that's something else entirely. That is one of the things that horrifies me about the sin of contraception --- aside from possibly a panicked, last-second act of coitus interruptus (BTW, an extremely crude, gross form of birth control), it's a sin that is fully deliberate by its very nature. Nobody ever went to the gynecologist or the drugstore in blind paroxysms of passion and clouded, incoherent intellect. That's one reason that it's so terrible that this sin is allowed to "slide" these days. |
|
