|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jun 27, 2021 7:00:21 GMT
How common is this?
I just received word that the bishop of a diocese is sending a priest-monsignor to administer the Sacrament of Confirmation in the traditional Latin rite to confirmandi who are attached to the parish in which the TLM/EF is offered. I do respect that a bishop, without auxiliaries, is going to be stretched very thin in a large and growing diocese, and I don't question the validity of the sacrament when administered by a priest --- I was confirmed in like fashion (baptized and confirmed as a young adult on the same day) --- but it seems to me, to be more appropriate, and the ideal, for the bishop to administer confirmation.
Again, is this common? I've never heard of it before, i.e., sending a priest to a parish to confer the sacrament to an entire age group in a parish or parishes.
I would add that this particular bishop is very able in Latin, celebrates the EF frequently himself, and there seems to be no reason, other than logistics and scheduling, that he could not easily do it himself. Not being critical, just noting the facts as I see them.
Thoughts?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 7:03:09 GMT
I was confirmed by a priest. I wish it wasn't done this way either. It'd be better to just hold confirmations throughout the year, instead of RCIA programs being designed to baptize (if necessary), confirm and give first holy communion all on the Easter Vigil. I would have been fine being confirmed on a random Tuesday in February, if it meant being confirmed by the Bishop.
|
|
|
|
Post by AgnusDei on Jun 27, 2021 15:21:01 GMT
Profession of faith, confirmation, and first communion in the same mass for me. By the priest. I suppose it was right.
Dominus vobiscum
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 17:32:00 GMT
It probably has to do with the fact that the Bishop isn't fluent in Latin, while the priest he is sending is.
Priests who celebrate the TLM have to be fluent in Latin and not just rattle off the Latin by rote or reading
from it.
|
|
|
|
Post by katy777 on Jul 3, 2021 20:53:09 GMT
My older kids were confirmed by Monsignor's about 10 or so years ago and my youngest got confirmed during covid by the school priest only attendants allowed were immediate family.
So it's very common.
BTW she was baptized by a deacon.
No worries she's my holiest child.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jul 4, 2021 14:44:24 GMT
It probably has to do with the fact that the Bishop isn't fluent in Latin, while the priest he is sending is. Priests who celebrate the TLM have to be fluent in Latin and not just rattle off the Latin by rote or reading from it. This particular bishop has degrees from two pontifical universities in Rome, so I would have a reasonable expectation that he is proficient enough in Latin, to celebrate any liturgy, including this one. I believe I'm correct in saying that any priest or bishop simply has to have the intention of "doing what the Church does" --- intentio faciendi quod facit ecclesia --- therefore absolute, "being able to think in the language with recourse only to that language", fluency probably isn't required.
I agree, the sacrament of confirmation is the sacrament of confirmation, regardless of who administers it, and I'm not going to get into the hair-splitting of "more grace" or "less grace" --- that is the parlor-game of some traditionalists, but it's not a parlor-game I play --- so it probably says more about me and my pride, "oh, man, I'd so much prefer it were a bishop", than it does about the bishop or his monsignor-priest. That veers onto the rumble strips of discussions such as "ought I dress more finely for a Pontifical High Mass at the basilica on Easter Sunday, than if I am stopping by St Stan's on a Tuesday evening on my way home from work at the warehouse, squeezing in Mass amidst work, commuting, and getting home to fix the family dinner for tonight?". That's been done to death here on CCS, and people see such matters differently.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2021 14:53:18 GMT
Fluency is required for priest or Bishops saying the TLM, it was outlined in the directive issued by Pope Benedict XVI. Also, just because the Bishop studied in Rome, doesn't mean he's fluent in Latin. He may have a basic understanding but in today's world, it's not necessary that clergy who study in Rome, become fluent in Latin. I've known priest who studied in Rome who have an understanding of Latin, but are not fluent. Either way, it's up to the Bishop whether he says a Mass in Latin or in the Vernacular. In fact, no priest can be forced to say Mass. I was told this by a priest friend who got a doctors degree in Rome on Liturgy and Spirituality. Your Bishop is sending a priest rather than going himself. This is more common today than ever, even in the NO. My own parish, the kids now have to travel two cities away to be Confirmed along with 50 other kids from various parishes, because the Bishop doesn't want to travel to all the little parishes in the dioceses anymore. I don't like it, but it's his decision and he's the authority, not me.  |
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jul 4, 2021 15:44:12 GMT
Fluency is required for priest or Bishops saying the TLM, it was outlined in the directive issued by Pope Benedict XVI. Also, just because the Bishop studied in Rome, doesn't mean he's fluent in Latin. He may have a basic understanding but in today's world, it's not necessary that clergy who study in Rome, become fluent in Latin. I've known priest who studied in Rome who have an understanding of Latin, but are not fluent. Either way, it's up to the Bishop whether he says a Mass in Latin or in the Vernacular. In fact, no priest can be forced to say Mass. I was told this by a priest friend who got a doctors degree in Rome on Liturgy and Spirituality. Your Bishop is sending a priest rather than going himself. This is more common today than ever, even in the NO. My own parish, the kids now have to travel two cities away to be Confirmed along with 50 other kids from various parishes, because the Bishop doesn't want to travel to all the little parishes in the dioceses anymore. I don't like it, but it's his decision and he's the authority, not me. I understood that the directive called for a knowledge of Latin, but I didn't know it called for fluency. "Fluency" is a hard concept to pin down. Is the educated Dutch or Swedish person, who basically understands English, but sometimes gets "stuck for a word", or doesn't always understand idiomatic expressions, "fluent" in English? Must the priest be able to sit down and translate the Gettysburg Address into Latin, with no reference materials, getting every case and declension absolutely right, to be considered "fluent" and thus be able to offer the TLM? I don't doubt what you say, but just for my own edification, I'll take a look to refine my understanding further. The Woywod/Smith 1917 CIC commentary, which is at my other house with many of my books, might address this in more detail --- not to suggest that we are still bound by the 1917 Pio-Benedictine Code, that would border on sedevacantism ---just to use it as a reference source since the TLM was "all there was" in the Latin Rite (pretty much so) at that time, and it is the Mass all priests would have celebrated.
I did not realize that sending priests to perform confirmations was a common thing. My understanding was that it was pretty much the province of the bishop, with priests only being delegated this authority for common-sense exceptions such as reception into the Church when the bishop wasn't going to be coming to the parish for quite a while, danger of death (though confirmation is not required for salvation), and so on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2021 16:10:38 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by katy777 on Jul 4, 2021 16:45:29 GMT
My children received the sacrament with the school parish and thier class at a regular mass . Latin had nothing to do with it.
The bishop came and said all baccalaureate masses for high school graduation though.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jul 4, 2021 16:55:45 GMT
A quick review of Summorum pontificum yields this: §4 Priests using the Missal of Blessed John XXIII must be qualified (idonei) and not prevented by law.
(§ 4. Sacerdotes Missali B. Ioannis XXIII utentes, idonei esse debent ac iure non impediti.)
A "quick and dirty" translation of idonei --- my new word for today --- yields "worthy" or "suitable", not necessarily "fluent". Or is the requirement of "fluency" in some other document?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, or be one of these people who rivets on one word, and what it means, and beats it to death --- pretty hard to make friends, or to live a normal life, when someone is like that --- just trying to pin down a baseline of fluency/proficiency/whatever that is required for celebration of the TLM, or conferral of other sacraments (such as confirmation). I find it hard to believe that each and every priest prior to Vatican II, or prior to the 20th century, had an absolute degree of fluency in Latin.
I read once of a priest's lament that he wished he were "just a simple priest who knew only enough Latin to say Mass", and I don't believe he was referring to "simplex" priests who do not have sufficient theological acumen to hear confessions or preach sermons. (And in the latter case, couldn't another priest write the sermon, or couldn't the simplex priest take a sermon from one of the great preachers of the Church, such as St Bernard of Clairvaux, attribute it, and read it verbatim?)
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jul 4, 2021 17:03:11 GMT
Okay, cool, again, I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just trying to establish "how much Latin does a priest have to know, to celebrate the TLM?". This bishop celebrates the TLM in Latin, so I'm assuming he is suitable/worthy/idonei or what have you.
I hate to say it, but I have heard some pretty poorly-pronounced Latin by priests celebrating the TLM. Indeed, I downloaded the text of some Mass prayers in creating a triptych for the altar of a chapel one time, did the layout, formatted the artwork, the whole thing, and there were so many misspellings and errors in the text --- which I had to correct manually using a hand missal --- that I even suspected demonic activity, trying to garble the prayers so badly, that they would not be efficacious. My dear father helped me construct this triptych, something that, sadly, he would no longer be able to do. I retro-fitted award plaques from my office, nice hardwood panels, laminated the altar cards and glued them on, I still have it in my home prayer corner.
|
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Jul 4, 2021 17:09:14 GMT
My children received the sacrament with the school parish and thier class at a regular mass . Latin had nothing to do with it. The bishop came and said all baccalaureate masses for high school graduation though. This is specifically in reference to confirmations being performed using the traditional rites in Latin. Many traditionalists prefer this, indeed, when my son is confirmed --- whenever that may be --- my preference will be for such rites. The SSPX performs such confirmations, requiring only a solid knowledge of doctrine from the catechism --- Angelus Press publishes such a mini-catechism, which we have --- rather than this long-drawn-out preparation period with classes, community service obligations, and all that stuff that is required for confirmation in the OF/NOM environment. (I ensure that my son has a strong sense of civic virtue and the necessity of service to those less fortunate. Right now I am inoculating him against the errors and excesses of dog-eat-dog laissez-faire capitalism, lessons that he is taking to heart.) |
|
|
|
Post by katy777 on Jul 4, 2021 23:13:37 GMT
You can call the parish office. My daughter was brought up traditional and parishes merged. She goes to traditional mass with us, and sings in contemporary choir at the regular mass. So 2 masses, lol.
I get what your saying, but this is common. The monsignor may say the mass in Latin. Just ask.
Will you still be homeschooling your son in high school?
|
|
|
|
Post by po18guy on Jul 5, 2021 3:07:41 GMT
It is both valid and licit. If the Priest baptizes you, then he is also authorized to confirm you. Exactly what occurred in my case. I see no problem and am grateful that the Church both accepted me and can accommodate virtually any life situation.
|
|
