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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 15, 2021 1:59:47 GMT
I was browsing the website of a parish a friend told me about, and found this announcement:
"Confessions for Wednesday, July 14 have been cancelled. Come by the church tomorrow evening from 6-7p.m. to receive absolution"
From the way the announcement reads, it sounds as though confessions will not be heard Thursday evening ("tomorrow" here), but that there will simply be individual and/or group absolution.
Has anyone ever heard of this before?
I would hasten to note two things:
* This is a parish that is known for its absolute orthodoxy, and is a site for the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as the OF. So this is not some liberal, loosey-goosey redoubt, quite the contrary, anything but.
* If there is truly no way confessions can be heard --- lack of time, logistics, or even (and this is a huge stretch!) that the only priest available is a "simplex" priest who cannot hear confessions but who has the power to absolve --- then I have no problem with this. I want to see everyone get absolution who possibly can, assuming they are rightly disposed. I would even have no issue, if some long-winded penitent went into the confessional and hogged all of the priest's time (one really needs to make an appointment for a confession such as that), leaving the remaining penitents unable to go to confession, for the priest to come out after he is done with Mister or Miss My Life Story, and grant general absolution to them --- with the admonition that "I'll do this for you so that you can get the grace of the sacrament, but do come back to confession at your earliest opportunity, this is a special favor given the circumstances and we're not going to make a practice of it". (A sign in the confessional area admonishing penitents to be as brief as possible, and to call and make an appointment instead for a longer confession if needed, would be nice.)
But to circle back to my main point, this struck me as kind of bizarre, and I am wondering if it is commonplace, or if anyone has ever heard of it before. The parish is in a city some distance away, so I wouldn't be going, but this did catch my notice.
(And is there even such a thing as a "simplex" priest anymore?)
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Post by RN69 on Jul 15, 2021 10:01:03 GMT
I don't know if this is the same thing as you posted but since maybe mid 70's I've been to several communal penance services offered by both military and civilian Catholic parishes. First one was at Ft. Wainwright, AK during peace time deployment to the field for month long maneuvers. In civilian parishes it was usually offered during Lent or Advent. It consisted of readings of Biblical passages reflecting on forgiveness, a short homily and recitation by all present of the Act of Contrition. The priest then gave a general absolution to everyone with the obligation that any serious sins must be confessed by the penitent to a priest in a private confession as soon as possible or at least within a years time. It's been a while since I've been to a communal penance service. Maybe it has become less popular among either the clergy or with the people. My understanding was that this general absolution was considered to be a valid sacrament.
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Post by po18guy on Jul 15, 2021 17:51:36 GMT
OH, this may or may not be an abuse. The language is just ambiguous enough to intimate that one may confess the following evening. Yet, rather than use then not-always-well-received word "confess", they chose to describe the result of confession: absolution.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 15, 2021 18:17:36 GMT
I don't know if this is the same thing as you posted but since maybe mid 70's I've been to several communal penance services offered by both military and civilian Catholic parishes. First one was at Ft. Wainwright, AK during peace time deployment to the field for month long maneuvers. In civilian parishes it was usually offered during Lent or Advent. It consisted of readings of Biblical passages reflecting on forgiveness, a short homily and recitation by all present of the Act of Contrition. The priest then gave a general absolution to everyone with the obligation that any serious sins must be confessed by the penitent to a priest in a private confession as soon as possible or at least within a years time. It's been a while since I've been to a communal penance service. Maybe it has become less popular among either the clergy or with the people. My understanding was that this general absolution was considered to be a valid sacrament. My understanding is that "communal penance services" consist of all the things you describe, except that there is still individual auricular confession and absolution, not general absolution. I suppose that if there were only one priest, and a large number of penitents, with no time to hear all those confessions, what you describe would be licit, again, with the caveat that one confess at least any mortal sins (a term I much prefer to "grave" or "serious", when you think about it, all sins are "serious") as soon as possible. I don't think that the "within a year's time" comment is in keeping with the mind of the Church. Communal penance services normally have several priests present, who can all hear confessions. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 15, 2021 18:22:44 GMT
OH, this may or may not be an abuse. The language is just ambiguous enough to intimate that one may confess the following evening. Yet, rather than use then not-always-well-received word "confess", they chose to describe the result of confession: absolution. I really have to think that this particular parish is not a place where "abuses" would be done. It is a very conservative parish in a very conservative diocese. I don't believe they're known for their liturgical and sacramental improvisation or experimentation.
If they were going to hear confessions the next day instead, they should just have said so. How hard would it be, to say "Wednesday's confessions have been cancelled, please come to confession on Thursday instead from 6 to 7 pm"? These are crazy times, every place is short-staffed, maybe it was just someone in a hurry, having to post the announcement ASAP, with no time for proofreading, or stopping to say "could this create the impression that confessions will not actually be heard?".
It may just be careless wording.
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Post by RN69 on Jul 15, 2021 21:01:42 GMT
homeschooldad I found this on line about communal penance. When we went to this type of service in AK there wasn't any additional priests available. There was at that time only one civilian Catholic Church in Fairbanks and that parish also had to serve outlying Catholic communities. The military parish on Ft. Wainwright had only one chaplain and there were times we didn't have a priest to say Sunday Mass and instead had a Sunday Eucharistic service. In the other instances when we were back in the lower 48 there were additional priests available for individual confessions but general absolution was given with the understanding that private confession was the obligation of those who had committed grave sin(s). It may have fallen out of favor in the following years for various reasons that I don't know about but this was a valid form of the sacrament of penance at that time. Catholic Dictionary Term COMMUNAL PENANCE Definition Group celebration of the sacrament of penance in one of several different ways, authorized by Pope Paul VI in 1973. One form has a communal penitential service, with individual confession of sins with absolution. Another form is entirely communal, including general absolution. When general absolution is given in exceptional circumstances, the penitents are obliged to make a private confession of their grave sins, unless it is morally impossible, at least within a year.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 16, 2021 0:04:49 GMT
homeschooldad I found this on line about communal penance. When we went to this type of service in AK there wasn't any additional priests available. There was at that time only one civilian Catholic Church in Fairbanks and that parish also had to serve outlying Catholic communities. The military parish on Ft. Wainwright had only one chaplain and there were times we didn't have a priest to say Sunday Mass and instead had a Sunday Eucharistic service. In the other instances when we were back in the lower 48 there were additional priests available for individual confessions but general absolution was given with the understanding that private confession was the obligation of those who had committed grave sin(s). It may have fallen out of favor in the following years for various reasons that I don't know about but this was a valid form of the sacrament of penance at that time. Catholic Dictionary Term COMMUNAL PENANCE Definition Group celebration of the sacrament of penance in one of several different ways, authorized by Pope Paul VI in 1973. One form has a communal penitential service, with individual confession of sins with absolution. Another form is entirely communal, including general absolution. When general absolution is given in exceptional circumstances, the penitents are obliged to make a private confession of their grave sins, unless it is morally impossible, at least within a year. I did not know this. If circumstances dictate, and if the Church is okay with it, then I'm okay with it.
Due to the relative shortage of priests, and the almost-impossible time demands that are made on the ones that we do have, I would actually favor a more liberal use of general absolution, again, assuming the recipients of the absolution are properly disposed, and if they confess at least all of their mortal sins as soon as possible. Our society is so fast-paced, people both lay and clerical have so many demands on their time, and commuting and other logistics make being at the church at a specific time on Saturday afternoon more difficult than it was, for instance, in small villages where everything was within walking distance.
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Post by po18guy on Jul 16, 2021 6:51:03 GMT
Note the "exceptional circumstances" clause. Boat sinking. Airplane going down, etc. Communal penance services are essentially a group examination of conscience, followed by individual sacramental confession/absolution - unless the forgoing emergency exists.
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Post by justme on Jul 19, 2021 13:35:06 GMT
* This is a parish that is known for its absolute orthodoxy, and is a site for the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as the OF. So this is not some liberal, loosey-goosey redoubt, quite the contrary, anything but.
Lost me at this comment:
I long for the return of orthodoxy when we all embraced each part of the creed, including "one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" instead of labelling some parishes as "liberalm loosey-goosey" and others as "anything but". |
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 19, 2021 15:00:48 GMT
* This is a parish that is known for its absolute orthodoxy, and is a site for the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as the OF. So this is not some liberal, loosey-goosey redoubt, quite the contrary, anything but.
Lost me at this comment:
I long for the return of orthodoxy when we all embraced each part of the creed, including "one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" instead of labelling some parishes as "liberalm loosey-goosey" and others as "anything but". It would be nice, and things seem to be leveling out somewhat in recent years, but in the 1970s and 1980s, going to Mass at a parish you didn't normally attend, was like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, "you never knew what you were going to get".
I noticed this especially in Southern dioceses, and had a pet theory, that more "innovative" priests felt at liberty to do this, as there were fewer Catholics, many were either converts or spouses of converts, and Catholic culture wasn't deeply entrenched, so they were less likely to "have their hand called" on liturgical and even theological shenanigans, because resistance would be less. |
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Post by katy777 on Jul 20, 2021 19:37:50 GMT
I went to 1 Mass in my entire life that did this...maybe the priest knew people were recieving with moral sin, idk.
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Post by homeschooldad on Jul 21, 2021 0:15:05 GMT
I went to 1 Mass in my entire life that did this...maybe the priest knew people were recieving with moral sin, idk. Hard to say. (And I'm assuming you meant to say "mortal" sin.) I went to one Mass, on vacation, in a Southern diocese that was fairly liberal at the time, where the priest did this. My family and I promptly walked out and attended another Mass on our way to our destination (we were on vacation). I always had very little tolerance for blatant liturgical abuses.
But this was back around 1980. At that time, they were experimenting with a little bit of everything. The Anglican church performs such a general absolution at the beginning of their Mass, and I am assuming that this pastor thought this was a good idea, and wanted to import this practice into his Mass.
Incidentally, I later moved to this diocese and attended this priest's Masses often (he no longer did the general absolution), and each and every time, without fail --- it was no slip of the tongue or a one-time thing --- when he consecrated the Precious Blood, he very precisely and specifically said "... which is shed for you and for all PEOPLE, so that sins MIGHT be forgiven". I always had qualms that this might be an invalid consecration, but I never talked to him about it. (He is now deceased.) I even had to wonder if, since he was Maronite (though he said the Roman Rite OF in the vernacular, evidently he was bi-ritual), perhaps he had some sort of indult to do this, perhaps he had Aramaic or a similar tongue as his first language, and reasoned "well, if you were saying these words as Our Lord said them, the meaning would be 'all people', and it would be 'might', not 'may', a subtle semantic difference". That very well could be true, but the Church has been crystal-clear that a priest may not tamper with these words for any reason, including, presumably, having an expertise in Aramaic and knowing "well, it really means 'this', it doesn't sound right unless you translate it the way I'm translating it ". Can't do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2021 18:56:35 GMT
General absolution is not allowed in the Catholic Church.
It should be in my opinion, but it's not.
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Post by tth1 on Aug 23, 2021 14:59:40 GMT
I was browsing the website of a parish a friend told me about, and found this announcement:
"Confessions for Wednesday, July 14 have been cancelled. Come by the church tomorrow evening from 6-7p.m. to receive absolution"
From the way the announcement reads, it sounds as though confessions will not be heard Thursday evening ("tomorrow" here), but that there will simply be individual and/or group absolution.
Has anyone ever heard of this before?
I would hasten to note two things:
* This is a parish that is known for its absolute orthodoxy, and is a site for the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as the OF. So this is not some liberal, loosey-goosey redoubt, quite the contrary, anything but.
* If there is truly no way confessions can be heard --- lack of time, logistics, or even (and this is a huge stretch!) that the only priest available is a "simplex" priest who cannot hear confessions but who has the power to absolve --- then I have no problem with this. I want to see everyone get absolution who possibly can, assuming they are rightly disposed. I would even have no issue, if some long-winded penitent went into the confessional and hogged all of the priest's time (one really needs to make an appointment for a confession such as that), leaving the remaining penitents unable to go to confession, for the priest to come out after he is done with Mister or Miss My Life Story, and grant general absolution to them --- with the admonition that "I'll do this for you so that you can get the grace of the sacrament, but do come back to confession at your earliest opportunity, this is a special favor given the circumstances and we're not going to make a practice of it". (A sign in the confessional area admonishing penitents to be as brief as possible, and to call and make an appointment instead for a longer confession if needed, would be nice.)
But to circle back to my main point, this struck me as kind of bizarre, and I am wondering if it is commonplace, or if anyone has ever heard of it before. The parish is in a city some distance away, so I wouldn't be going, but this did catch my notice.
(And is there even such a thing as a "simplex" priest anymore?)
I think this is too difficult a question too answer due to an insufficient amount of information. The wording of the advertisement is certainly ambiguous. Do you simply drive by at the stated time and all your mortal sins are forgiven? You add that the parish is known for its orthodoxy. That suggests the priest there isn't simply doling about absolutions to all and sundry.
I can't say I believe that the conditions necessary for giving a general absolution were in place. It would, as I understand it, also require the bishop's permission to be done. The best place to get an answer would be to email the parish in question and ask them directly.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 23, 2021 17:08:00 GMT
I was browsing the website of a parish a friend told me about, and found this announcement:
"Confessions for Wednesday, July 14 have been cancelled. Come by the church tomorrow evening from 6-7p.m. to receive absolution"
From the way the announcement reads, it sounds as though confessions will not be heard Thursday evening ("tomorrow" here), but that there will simply be individual and/or group absolution.
Has anyone ever heard of this before?
I would hasten to note two things:
* This is a parish that is known for its absolute orthodoxy, and is a site for the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as the OF. So this is not some liberal, loosey-goosey redoubt, quite the contrary, anything but.
* If there is truly no way confessions can be heard --- lack of time, logistics, or even (and this is a huge stretch!) that the only priest available is a "simplex" priest who cannot hear confessions but who has the power to absolve --- then I have no problem with this. I want to see everyone get absolution who possibly can, assuming they are rightly disposed. I would even have no issue, if some long-winded penitent went into the confessional and hogged all of the priest's time (one really needs to make an appointment for a confession such as that), leaving the remaining penitents unable to go to confession, for the priest to come out after he is done with Mister or Miss My Life Story, and grant general absolution to them --- with the admonition that "I'll do this for you so that you can get the grace of the sacrament, but do come back to confession at your earliest opportunity, this is a special favor given the circumstances and we're not going to make a practice of it". (A sign in the confessional area admonishing penitents to be as brief as possible, and to call and make an appointment instead for a longer confession if needed, would be nice.)
But to circle back to my main point, this struck me as kind of bizarre, and I am wondering if it is commonplace, or if anyone has ever heard of it before. The parish is in a city some distance away, so I wouldn't be going, but this did catch my notice.
(And is there even such a thing as a "simplex" priest anymore?)
I think this is too difficult a question too answer due to an insufficient amount of information. The wording of the advertisement is certainly ambiguous. Do you simply drive by at the stated time and all your mortal sins are forgiven? You add that the parish is known for its orthodoxy. That suggests the priest there isn't simply doling about absolutions to all and sundry.
I can't say I believe that the conditions necessary for giving a general absolution were in place. It would, as I understand it, also require the bishop's permission to be done. The best place to get an answer would be to email the parish in question and ask them directly.
You are quite right, it is ambiguous, which occasioned my question in the first place. If they meant "confessions will be heard on Thursday, not Wednesday, this week", then that's fine. If they meant "no confession on Thursday, just absolution, let's get that out of the way, and you can confess some other time, as soon as reasonably possible", I wouldn't have an issue with this either. I'd be content to leave it to the discretion of the priest, whether there is a situation that justifies general absolution with no confession first. |
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