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Post by katy777 on Aug 30, 2021 23:13:40 GMT
Why can't people just remember the mass as Jesus' sacrifice?
I cannot process this mass division.
It's making me very sad. There should be no division in the church. You like guitar mass and priest approves..go for it. You like a more formal mass go for it.
People get tied up too much in mass politics.
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Post by tth1 on Aug 31, 2021 15:25:37 GMT
I do not see any division. The Church has always had different liturgical rites. Unity and uniformity are not the same thing. If one person prefers to go to an Ordinary Form Mass, another prefers the Extraordinary Form, a third likes the Mass at the Ordinariate church, another likes Charismatic Catholic liturgies, yet another goes to a Ruthenian Catholic Divine Liturgy, is not to me division. It is simply one's preference. We are all Catholics and do not require uniformity to be united.
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Post by pianistclare on Aug 31, 2021 16:29:28 GMT
Oh, then you must not read the blogs, LOL
I agree with you and with Katy. But there are people out there in cyberspace that will fight to the death that one form is holier than another. Most of us want to receive Christ in the Eucharist and hear a wonderful homily. Prayers for everyone on this forum! Peace.
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Post by tth1 on Sept 3, 2021 16:28:22 GMT
Oh Claire, I do know how people fight over this. I may have misunderstood Katy's post or poorly written my previous one. What I mean is I see no reason for the division. It shouldn't exist even though it does. I know some think by going to the Extraordinary Form they are 'holier-than-thou'. Some who attend the Ordinary Form believe those who don't have completely rejected Vatican II.
The Church has, and I mean just the Latin Church here and not our Eastern Catholic brethren, had and continues to have more than one rite. No one should consider themselves to be better Catholics because they go to a particular form of lituggy and should not think others are worse. The liturgy is not about me or you, which too many think it is. It is about the worship of God! That is all that should be on one's mind when you go to Mass, Vespers, Adoration, the Rosary, a novena, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 15:29:15 GMT
The Catholic News Agency group on Facebook has articles about Pope Francis Motu Proprio and so-called traditionalists have attacked myself and every other person who supports Pope Francis and Vatican II.
One person pushes sedevacantism and is a member of a SSPX group. He copies and pastes mega articles from the 16th century and the Council of Trent and saints who wrote something to address an issue in their era which are contrary to the information in the CNA articles. The goal it seems is to overwhelm people with articles so that they'll just give up.
I went through this with Jehovah's Witnesses years back. The best thing to do is ignore them and not get into arguments over what they believe the Catholic Church teaches which is incorrect, but what they're taught in the JW religion.
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Post by tth1 on Sept 4, 2021 18:01:55 GMT
The Catholic News Agency group on Facebook has articles about Pope Francis Motu Proprio and so-called traditionalists have attacked myself and every other person who supports Pope Francis and Vatican II. One person pushes sedevacantism and is a member of a SSPX group. He copies and pastes mega articles from the 16th century and the Council of Trent and saints who wrote something to address an issue in their era which are contrary to the information in the CNA articles. The goal it seems is to overwhelm people with articles so that they'll just give up. I went through this with Jehovah's Witnesses years back. The best thing to do is ignore them and not get into arguments over what they believe the Catholic Church teaches which is incorrect, but what they're taught in the JW religion. I don't believe that is representative of many traditionalists. They do not behave like this. Here we have an example of where the few spoil it for the many. You will always find people like this and more so than in the past. While I think the Internet is a wonderful tool it has given a platform to many people who would never previously had one.
Most trditionalists don't want disunity; they aren't against Pope Francis; they don't think the Holy See is sede vacante; they don't reject Vatican II. I believe Pope Benedict's motu proprio Summorum pontificum was far more pastoral. My feeling when I read Traditionis custodes was one of great sadness.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 18:10:02 GMT
The Catholic News Agency group on Facebook has articles about Pope Francis Motu Proprio and so-called traditionalists have attacked myself and every other person who supports Pope Francis and Vatican II. One person pushes sedevacantism and is a member of a SSPX group. He copies and pastes mega articles from the 16th century and the Council of Trent and saints who wrote something to address an issue in their era which are contrary to the information in the CNA articles. The goal it seems is to overwhelm people with articles so that they'll just give up. I went through this with Jehovah's Witnesses years back. The best thing to do is ignore them and not get into arguments over what they believe the Catholic Church teaches which is incorrect, but what they're taught in the JW religion. I don't believe that is representative of many traditionalists. They do not behave like this. Here we have an example of where the few spoil it for the many. You will always find people like this and more so than in the past. While I think the Internet is a wonderful tool it has given a platform to many people who would never previously had one.
Most trditionalists don't want disunity; they aren't against Pope Francis; they don't think the Holy See is sede vacante; they don't reject Vatican II. I believe Pope Benedict's motu proprio Summorum pontificum was far more pastoral. My feeling when I read Traditionis custodes was one of great sadness.
Then visit Facebook and the Catholic News Agency group and you'll get a different impression.
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Post by tth1 on Sept 4, 2021 18:12:38 GMT
I don't believe that is representative of many traditionalists. They do not behave like this. Here we have an example of where the few spoil it for the many. You will always find people like this and more so than in the past. While I think the Internet is a wonderful tool it has given a platform to many people who would never previously had one.
Most trditionalists don't want disunity; they aren't against Pope Francis; they don't think the Holy See is sede vacante; they don't reject Vatican II. I believe Pope Benedict's motu proprio Summorum pontificum was far more pastoral. My feeling when I read Traditionis custodes was one of great sadness.
Then visit Facebook and the Catholic News Agency group and you'll get a different impression. I don't need to and it's clear you haven't taken onboard what I said. Yes, you are bound to find that kind of person in those places. However, they do not represent the silent majority. There is an old, but true, cliche that empty vessels make the most noise.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 18:18:14 GMT
Then visit Facebook and the Catholic News Agency group and you'll get a different impression. I don't need to and it's clear you haven't taken onboard what I said. Yes, you are bound to find that kind of person in those places. However, they do not represent the silent majority. There is an old, but true, cliche that empty vessels make the most noise. It's not just a person, but persons. This isn't targeted at you, but the experience us Catholics who attend the Ordinary Format are experiencing.
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Post by tth1 on Sept 4, 2021 18:33:09 GMT
I don't need to and it's clear you haven't taken onboard what I said. Yes, you are bound to find that kind of person in those places. However, they do not represent the silent majority. There is an old, but true, cliche that empty vessels make the most noise. It's not just a person, but persons. This isn't targeted at you, but the experience us Catholics who attend the Ordinary Format are experiencing. I know it isn't targeted at me. I never for one moment thought it was. I don't even count myself in the traditionalist camp and I go to Mass in the Ordinary Form.
What I am saying is what you are seeing on social media is those traditionalists who go there to spout off and do the cause of traditionalists no good. However, if you take a balanced view you will find out there that it isn't only traditionalists who are targetting other Catholics but that people on both sides of the argument behave in this reprehensible way.
It isn't only this argument in Catholicism but arguments about anything under the Sun. In all cases they're a very vocal minority but a minority nonetheless. Most traditionalists have nothing against those of us who attend the Church's Liturgy in the Ordinary Form; they do not believe Pope Francis is not the true pope; they don't throw the teachings of Vatican II out of the window. They are good and faithful Catholics who go about minding their own business.
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Post by pianistclare on Sept 4, 2021 22:50:08 GMT
As a humorous side note: My sister who also had a Catholic theology degree used to invite the Mormons and the JW in to "talk about the Bible". She pointed out every instance of wrong interpretation or poor translation to them. They'd soon leave, and never come back. Worked like a charm!
Another thing my late husband did once (our house had a JW church in the field behind the house) was draw a chalk outline of a person and scatter copies of the "Watchtower tracts" all around the sidewalk. They wouldn't even walk on that side of the street after that.
OK, back to the thread.
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Post by katy777 on Sept 5, 2021 0:10:33 GMT
Your sister must have been very brave to do this. I don't answer the door for JW pianistclare. Now I get personal letters mailed to me, like a friend would do.
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Post by StellaMaris on Sept 5, 2021 1:29:20 GMT
The Catholic News Agency group on Facebook has articles about Pope Francis Motu Proprio and so-called traditionalists have attacked myself and every other person who supports Pope Francis and Vatican II. One person pushes sedevacantism and is a member of a SSPX group. He copies and pastes mega articles from the 16th century and the Council of Trent and saints who wrote something to address an issue in their era which are contrary to the information in the CNA articles. The goal it seems is to overwhelm people with articles so that they'll just give up. I went through this with Jehovah's Witnesses years back. The best thing to do is ignore them and not get into arguments over what they believe the Catholic Church teaches which is incorrect, but what they're taught in the JW religion. I don't believe that is representative of many traditionalists. They do not behave like this. Here we have an example of where the few spoil it for the many. You will always find people like this and more so than in the past. While I think the Internet is a wonderful tool it has given a platform to many people who would never previously had one.
Most trditionalists don't want disunity; they aren't against Pope Francis; they don't think the Holy See is sede vacante; they don't reject Vatican II. I believe Pope Benedict's motu proprio Summorum pontificum was far more pastoral. My feeling when I read Traditionis custodes was one of great sadness.
You haven't scratched below the surface of most TLM goers. While they might pay lip service to their choice just being personal to their taste, discuss a little longer with one and a sense of negativity to the post Vatican II Church and Mass inevitably will surface. They dream of the Church returning to a pre VII world and find little positive in Catholicism today. It is burying your head in the sand to think that Pope Francis and the Magisterium have gone off half cocked with the moto proprio because of a few unnotables. The problem of the anti VII spirit, is extensive and pervasive.
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Post by ralfy on Sept 5, 2021 3:42:06 GMT
Here's what I gathered so far:
According to Pope Benedict XVI, the OF borrows from more ancient liturgies, which means it is likely older than most imagine. The same goes for communal activities and even CITH.
Vernacular languages have been the default of the Catholic Church from the beginning, starting with Aramaic and common Greek. That also applies to the Bible, to which the Church has been resistant in mining for liturgical purposes for centuries.
The EF was introduced much later, and followed by official translations of the Bible in vernacular languages as these dominated only a few centuries after Latin became a lingua franca. The EF itself was modified several times across hundreds of years.
Decades before Vatican II, the Church encouraged more research on Bible translation and the use of vernacular languages for that and for other works, but with Latin still the base language. That's why even the OF was originally written in Latin.
After WW2, the world experienced incredible levels of economic growth across the board, leading to the rise of countries in Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas, regions which were missing or barely represented in Vatican I.
Given population aging in industrialized countries, these regions will dominate the Church soon.
Thus, Vatican II dominates because more Catholics come from areas which it addresses, and following a similar process that allowed Latin to dominate.
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Post by tth1 on Sept 5, 2021 13:35:48 GMT
I do not know if you can 'silence', 'ignore', et al. threads on this forum as is possible on other fora. However, I'm withdrawing from further involvement with this thread. A lot of its content is evidence for what I have been saying. Both sides of the argument are deeply entrenched in the notion they are correct and anybody else is wrong. That deeply saddens me. I believe there is room in the Church for those who want to worship God (after all that's what we're about) in the forms of the liturgy in force on the eve of Vatican II and for those who want to worship in the forms of the liturgy in force since Vatican II.
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