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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 15, 2021 16:20:56 GMT
This is a traditionally-observed Catholic practice, and some Anglicans do it as well. This, from a source with which I don't think anyone here can have a problem:
In our time, this is just a private devotion, that does not bind under so much as pain of even venial sin.
In past years, I never practiced them (some traditionalist, eh?), because I didn't really understand them, and, as I noted, they no longer bind under pain of sin.
Our priest explained them last Sunday, and I said to myself, maybe this is the time to start.
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Post by tisbearself on Dec 15, 2021 22:22:25 GMT
What did your priest say to do?
I normally do half-abstinence (except Friday which is full abstinence) and read the Ember Day readings out of an 1865 missal.
I missed the fall Ember Days this year because my life has been a little too hectic so I’m trying to do a twofer this week and double up the readings.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 15, 2021 23:08:40 GMT
What did your priest say to do? I normally do half-abstinence (except Friday which is full abstinence) and read the Ember Day readings out of an 1865 missal. I missed the fall Ember Days this year because my life has been a little too hectic so I’m trying to do a twofer this week and double up the readings.
He just said to do the fasting (two half-meals and one full meal, the "principal meal of the day", which could vary with culture and circumstances) and half-abstinence on Wednesday and Saturday (meat with the principal meal). He alluded to prayers and liturgies, but pointed out that we do not have the TLM every day here, so the full-blown liturgical observance isn't possible, unless, of course, one says prayers privately as you describe. I have "aged out" of fasting, but I still keep it if I can. I have had some fairly serious metabolic issues lately and the doctor was only able to get my medicine approved yesterday --- in fact, I was sick all weekend and almost didn't make it to Mass at all --- so I will do what I can. I am feeling better now. I know you know this, but it is merely a private devotion, and surely one can make whatever adjustments are needed or desired, or not do it at all, it's up to the individual.
They always seemed to me, to be kind of a "rural thing", indeed, I tended to conflate them with Rogation Days, reasoning that both were more suited to those who work the land. But we all eat, therefore benefiting from agriculture, and everybody experiences the seasons, so when the priest spoke of them on Sunday, I said to myself "why not?".
I am baking ziti with ground beef tonight for my "principal" meal of the day.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 16, 2021 13:28:28 GMT
This is a traditionally-observed Catholic practice ...
However, it should not be reserved to traditionalist quarters. Vatican II did not abolish Ember Days. Rather than have them set centrally by the Holy See, Vatican II called for them to be determined by episcopal conferences. This seems not to have happened in most places. |
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 16, 2021 14:00:31 GMT
This is a traditionally-observed Catholic practice ...
However, it should not be reserved to traditionalist quarters. Vatican II did not abolish Ember Days. Rather than have them set centrally by the Holy See, Vatican II called for them to be determined by episcopal conferences. This seems not to have happened in most places. And it's not reserved to those quarters. But how much do you ever hear about it anymore? I have heard of exceptions, and that is inspiring. Here's one:
Again, not mandatory, totally up to the individual, no question of even venial sin if one doesn't observe them, or doesn't think they have anything to do with one's own spiritual life. A totally voluntary and optional practice.
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Post by tisbearself on Dec 17, 2021 2:07:13 GMT
Ember Days is largely an agrarian festival,so I can see it falling by the wayside due to most Catholics in US not living that sort of agrarian lifestyle..
Also, in the US where we don't have mandatory abstinence for Latin Rite Catholics outside of Lent any more, most Latin Rite Catholics are unlikely to be jazzed about some requirement to do "half-abstinence" for 3 days 4 times a year. Just understanding what that means would probably confuse many people and have folks worrying about whether they sinned by eating a burger, even if the priest announced multiple times it wasn't binding on pain of sin. I always think the USCCB got rid of regular Friday abstinence because they were tired of dealing with people confessing they forgot and ate meat, or asking for dispensations to eat meat. For a lot of people, food rules are a huge deal to the point where they don't even think about why they're doing a food penance in the first place.
The only Latin Catholics who find these sorts of penances easy to follow, and indeed may choose to do even more than what's required, are the traditionalists, who are more used to doing penance and can likely find Ember Day Masses at their traditional parishes and also look up whatever they need to know on Fisheaters or Catholic Culture if their trad parish priest doesn't write some long essay in their bulletin about it.
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Post by Jn2029 on Dec 17, 2021 3:46:16 GMT
Good info here. I must admit I never knew much about ember days or barely even heard of it until I read it on the Catholic forums a few years ago when I started reading them. However I was aware of Friday penance all year long. As I understand it before say about 1970 meat abstinence was required on Fridays throughout the year. After that the abstinence could be replaced with another form of penance. I choose to do the meat abstinence on Friday all year long.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 17, 2021 3:52:59 GMT
Good info here. I must admit I never knew much about ember days or barely even heard of it until I read it on the Catholic forums a few years ago when I started reading them. However I was aware of Friday penance all year long. As I understand it before say about 1970 meat abstinence was required on Fridays throughout the year. After that the abstinence could be replaced with another form of penance. I choose to do the meat abstinence on Friday all year long.
Good choice. Yes, it is absolutely true that Catholics, at least in the US, have the choice to do some other penance, act of charity, and so on, on Fridays outside of Lent --- and for some people, this could be more spiritually profitable --- but it is far easier (but is penance supposed to be easy?) and more straightforward, just to keep the traditional practice. You always know that you have done the penance that the Church prescribed, and you know that it has satisfied some sort of bare minimum. (Doing both might be a plan! We shouldn't be satisfied with a "bare minimum".)
We do know, as Catholics, that we must do penance --- a life totally devoid of penance would be a pretty bad thing --- and the Church has traditionally provided a way for us to know that we have, indeed, done some sort of "baseline" minimum.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 17, 2021 16:40:17 GMT
Ember Days are not something that need by linked with an agrarian society. They were intended as times for fasting and abstinence. They were intended to give thanks to God for the gifts of nature, to teach us to make use of those gifts in moderation and to support those in need. In our modern societies I think they would be a good thing to observe. Many in Western society seem to forget or be ignorant of where ther food ultimately comes from. I believe the Ember Days were also a time when ordinations took place.
We, too, in England and Wales had the Friday penance of abstinence from meat abolished. I cannot say why because I do not know. However, in the recent past it was restored and is mandatory on all Fridays except I believe if the Friday is a solemnity.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 18, 2021 1:28:32 GMT
Ember Days are not something that need by linked with an agrarian society. They were intended as times for fasting and abstinence. They were intended to give thanks to God for the gifts of nature, to teach us to make use of those gifts in moderation and to support those in need. In our modern societies I think they would be a good thing to observe. Many in Western society seem to forget or be ignorant of where ther food ultimately comes from. I believe the Ember Days were also a time when ordinations took place. We, too, in England and Wales had the Friday penance of abstinence from meat abolished. I cannot say why because I do not know. However, in the recent past it was restored and is mandatory on all Fridays except I believe if the Friday is a solemnity.
As I said, if you eat (and everybody does that), or if you experience weather (which would be practically everyone on Earth, even shut-ins require heat and cooling in tandem with the seasons), you have "skin in the game" WRT Ember Days.
The fasting and abstinence are just inconvenient enough, to be a minor penance. For my part, I'm a "nosher", I snack all day as the mood strikes me. Can't really do that with Ember Days. I didn't get my cookie this afternoon. Not fun. Also, our priest quipped that he didn't understand why Thursday is skipped --- Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, fine, but why skip Thursday? My pet idea on that, is that Thursday offers a bit of a respite, only to launch back in again on Friday with mitigated fasting and total abstinence, then on Saturday, when one who keeps Friday abstinence all year normally looks forward to a reprieve (I have been known to chow down on a sandwich with meat at midnight on Saturday!), you have yet another day of fasting and half-abstinence. Again, just hard enough to get your attention.
Totally voluntary practice that says nothing bad whatsoever about anyone who simply chooses not to do it. You're not a "better Catholic" for keeping Ember Days, nor are you a "worse Catholic" for not keeping them.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 19, 2021 14:26:57 GMT
Ember Days are not something that need by linked with an agrarian society. They were intended as times for fasting and abstinence. They were intended to give thanks to God for the gifts of nature, to teach us to make use of those gifts in moderation and to support those in need. In our modern societies I think they would be a good thing to observe. Many in Western society seem to forget or be ignorant of where ther food ultimately comes from. I believe the Ember Days were also a time when ordinations took place. We, too, in England and Wales had the Friday penance of abstinence from meat abolished. I cannot say why because I do not know. However, in the recent past it was restored and is mandatory on all Fridays except I believe if the Friday is a solemnity.
As I said, if you eat (and everybody does that), or if you experience weather (which would be practically everyone on Earth, even shut-ins require heat and cooling in tandem with the seasons), you have "skin in the game" WRT Ember Days.
The fasting and abstinence are just inconvenient enough, to be a minor penance. For my part, I'm a "nosher", I snack all day as the mood strikes me. Can't really do that with Ember Days. I didn't get my cookie this afternoon. Not fun. Also, our priest quipped that he didn't understand why Thursday is skipped --- Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, fine, but why skip Thursday? My pet idea on that, is that Thursday offers a bit of a respite, only to launch back in again on Friday with mitigated fasting and total abstinence, then on Saturday, when one who keeps Friday abstinence all year normally looks forward to a reprieve (I have been known to chow down on a sandwich with meat at midnight on Saturday!), you have yet another day of fasting and half-abstinence. Again, just hard enough to get your attention.
Totally voluntary practice that says nothing bad whatsoever about anyone who simply chooses not to do it. You're not a "better Catholic" for keeping Ember Days, nor are you a "worse Catholic" for not keeping them.
'Nosher' is not a term I've encountered before. Here we'd describe you as a 'grazer'.
I do wish you had not posed the question as to why the sequence of Ember days skips Thursday. I now want to know the answer. I have googled a range of search terms but I cannot find out the reason for the three particular days being chosen.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 19, 2021 15:52:02 GMT
As I said, if you eat (and everybody does that), or if you experience weather (which would be practically everyone on Earth, even shut-ins require heat and cooling in tandem with the seasons), you have "skin in the game" WRT Ember Days.
The fasting and abstinence are just inconvenient enough, to be a minor penance. For my part, I'm a "nosher", I snack all day as the mood strikes me. Can't really do that with Ember Days. I didn't get my cookie this afternoon. Not fun. Also, our priest quipped that he didn't understand why Thursday is skipped --- Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, fine, but why skip Thursday? My pet idea on that, is that Thursday offers a bit of a respite, only to launch back in again on Friday with mitigated fasting and total abstinence, then on Saturday, when one who keeps Friday abstinence all year normally looks forward to a reprieve (I have been known to chow down on a sandwich with meat at midnight on Saturday!), you have yet another day of fasting and half-abstinence. Again, just hard enough to get your attention.
Totally voluntary practice that says nothing bad whatsoever about anyone who simply chooses not to do it. You're not a "better Catholic" for keeping Ember Days, nor are you a "worse Catholic" for not keeping them.
'Nosher' is not a term I've encountered before. Here we'd describe you as a 'grazer'.
I do wish you had not posed the question as to why the sequence of Ember days skips Thursday. I now want to know the answer. I have googled a range of search terms but I cannot find out the reason for the three particular days being chosen.
If you find out, let us know. My conjecture of "let up a little bit, then come back with even harder penance" (though I'm not sure if Ember Days fasting and abstinence should be considered "penance"), is just an educated guess.
"Nosh" is Yiddish slang, and has made its way into the vocabulary of those who have at least a passing familiarity with American Jewish culture. Blame it on MAD Magazine in my case. Oy vey!
My son recently discovered MAD and we got several old issues from a retro book dealer. I didn't discourage this in the least. While it was published by somewhat-secular Jews (William Gaines was an atheist), it was actually a very educational, socially-conscious publication that in many ways was quite conservative and respectful of traditional values, even while lampooning them. (You can do both.) They had a very strong anti-substance abuse, anti-war, anti-racist, anti-bigotry message, and a wealth of political and social commentary. Much more a good influence than a bad one.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 19, 2021 16:03:26 GMT
'Nosher' is not a term I've encountered before. Here we'd describe you as a 'grazer'.
I do wish you had not posed the question as to why the sequence of Ember days skips Thursday. I now want to know the answer. I have googled a range of search terms but I cannot find out the reason for the three particular days being chosen.
If you find out, let us know. My conjecture of "let up a little bit, then come back with even harder penance" (though I'm not sure if Ember Days fasting and abstinence should be considered "penance"), is just an educated guess.
"Nosh" is Yiddish slang, and has made its way into the vocabulary of those who have at least a passing familiarity with American Jewish culture. Blame it on MAD Magazine in my case. Oy vey!
My son recently discovered MAD and we got several old issues from a retro book dealer. I didn't discourage this in the least. While it was published by somewhat-secular Jews (William Gaines was an atheist), it was actually a very educational, socially-conscious publication that in many ways was quite conservative and respectful of traditional values, even while lampooning them. (You can do both.) They had a very strong anti-substance abuse, anti-war, anti-racist, anti-bigotry message, and a wealth of political and social commentary. Much more a good influence than a bad one.
I should have been more precise. I've heard of 'nosh'. It's used a noun in British-English slang for food. It is used in British-English slang as a verb for something far more profane.
It was the word referring to one who constantly eats 'nosh' that was new to me. As I said someone with such eating habits is someone I'd be used to calling a grazer. I do sometimes graze when the mood takes me. For some strange reason Christmas Day is likely to be one. After lunch I will typically feel unable to move and want never to see food again. However, I will almost certainly spend the remainder of the day picking at food.
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Post by homeschooldad on Dec 19, 2021 16:19:39 GMT
If you find out, let us know. My conjecture of "let up a little bit, then come back with even harder penance" (though I'm not sure if Ember Days fasting and abstinence should be considered "penance"), is just an educated guess.
"Nosh" is Yiddish slang, and has made its way into the vocabulary of those who have at least a passing familiarity with American Jewish culture. Blame it on MAD Magazine in my case. Oy vey!
My son recently discovered MAD and we got several old issues from a retro book dealer. I didn't discourage this in the least. While it was published by somewhat-secular Jews (William Gaines was an atheist), it was actually a very educational, socially-conscious publication that in many ways was quite conservative and respectful of traditional values, even while lampooning them. (You can do both.) They had a very strong anti-substance abuse, anti-war, anti-racist, anti-bigotry message, and a wealth of political and social commentary. Much more a good influence than a bad one.
I should have been more precise. I've heard of 'nosh'. It's used a noun in British-English slang for food. It is used in British-English slang as a verb for something far more profane.
It was the word referring to one who constantly eats 'nosh' that was new to me. As I said someone with such eating habits is someone I'd be used to calling a grazer. I do sometimes graze when the mood takes me. For some strange reason Christmas Day is likely to be one. After lunch I will typically feel unable to move and want never to see food again. However, I will almost certainly spend the remainder of the day picking at food.
One does have to be careful with the sometimes-rude differences in meaning and intensity between British and American English slang words. "Pants" means something different in Britain than in America. Other examples probably aren't appropriate for this forum.
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Post by tth1 on Dec 20, 2021 15:41:38 GMT
I should have been more precise. I've heard of 'nosh'. It's used a noun in British-English slang for food. It is used in British-English slang as a verb for something far more profane.
It was the word referring to one who constantly eats 'nosh' that was new to me. As I said someone with such eating habits is someone I'd be used to calling a grazer. I do sometimes graze when the mood takes me. For some strange reason Christmas Day is likely to be one. After lunch I will typically feel unable to move and want never to see food again. However, I will almost certainly spend the remainder of the day picking at food.
One does have to be careful with the sometimes-rude differences in meaning and intensity between British and American English slang words. "Pants" means something different in Britain than in America. Other examples probably aren't appropriate for this forum.
I'm not aware of any difference. I know in both registers it means what are also called trousers. In British-English it can refer to both male and female underwear. I can't think of a rude version of pants in British-English. Someone may say something is 'pants', simply meaning it's rubbish. I think that is probably becoming archaic and don't imagine younger people using that expression. |
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