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Post by glennonp on Sept 6, 2017 17:02:53 GMT
My parish church was built in the 1950s. The altar rail fell out of use following Vatican II and was removed in a renovation in 1992. In early 2016, we renovated again and the pastor (different than the one in 1992) reinstalled the altar rail. He strongly encouraged parishioners to kneel for Communion and nearly all did, me included.
After the bruising "to kneel or not to kneel" battles at TOP, I felt a little uncomfortable being "forced" via peer pressure and the pastor's strong encouragement to kneel receiving Communion. I did it out of respect for the pastor, a personal friend since our college days in the early 1980s.
We received a new pastor in June. He too strongly encouraged us to receive kneeling, saying that "those who cannot kneel due to age or infirmity are of course welcome to stand". Absent the personal friendship I had with the old pastor, I didn't feel the same need to kneel to receive when his replacement arrived. Recently, a handful of able-bodied parishioners have begun standing to receive Communion and in the past few weeks I have too.
I'm really conflicted about this. My reluctance to kneel is based in large part on the "kneeling is the holier way to receive" posts at TOP. Those really rubbed me the wrong way. I know that the USCCB has stated that the normal posture for receiving in the U.S. is standing but the Vatican has also made it crystal clear that persons are also allowed to kneel. So both postures and valid and licit in the U.S. And I know that inner disposition is more important than external posture. I never minded the people who knelt while most of us were standing; that was their choice to make, not mine.
Here's my conflict: If I kneel, I feel like I'm giving in to peer pressure. If I stand, I feel like I'm calling attention to myself. In either case, my reception of Communion lately has been tarnished by this conflicting set of emotions.
Any thoughts on how I can/should resolve this? I appreciate your input.
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Post by pensmama87 on Sept 6, 2017 17:48:34 GMT
I would say that it's not merely "giving in to peer pressure" to kneel if your pastor has requested that parishioners do so. Even if he's not a personal friend the way your previous pastor was, he is charged with helping his flock grow spiritually and this is something he felt like saying something about. Even if it's not your preference, would you see a benefit in kneeling to receive as a matter of obedience to your pastor?
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Post by pianistclare on Sept 6, 2017 17:58:12 GMT
Do what you want. Period. IF there is not an altar railing, then by all means stand. There's no way I could kneel. They'd just have to get over it. I can't imagine making such a pronouncement.
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oneofthewomen
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I am a "Fruit Loop" in a bowl of "Cheerios"!
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Post by oneofthewomen on Sept 6, 2017 18:12:43 GMT
I agree with Clare. The USCCB made the "norm" standing. Your pastor can have his opinions, but he cannot make you receive 'his' way. I have an auto-immune disorder that affects my joints, some days I can kneel, some days I can't and I never know until I try. The problem with that is, sometimes I can get down, but I can't get up!!
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Post by katie on Sept 6, 2017 18:32:28 GMT
It would depend on why.
Since the altar rail was reinstalled at your parish, it may just be for a more steady flow for communicants not to bump into each other...so idk.
Here in my parish we just have the communion line and kneeling is discouraged, because people trip over each other. So it's not that he's telling people how to receive for reverence purposes, it's for safety.
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Post by pianistclare on Sept 6, 2017 18:42:18 GMT
I guess I missed the part about having a rail. But seriously, many will struggle with this. I'm guessing he's getting alot of calls and emails.
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Post by suscipemedomine on Sept 6, 2017 19:16:25 GMT
It seems kind of awkward, no matter what you do.
It seems to me that when we're at Mass we cease to be individuals and become one worshiping body. So as much as possible, our voices should blend together, our posture should blend together, and ideally, our minds and hearts should blend together. So that would argue for doing what the majority is doing, even if it's not your first choice. (And of course, one can only do what one can do. If you can't kneel for communion, then don't. If you can't stand through the gospel, then don't. Etc.)
But the other side is that the pastor has decided that his parish isn't part of the one worshiping body as defined by the GIRM. The US bishops have said the norm is to stand. And your various pastors have said, "make me." So they've already eliminated unity of posture as a value in favor of their personal preference. If you stand due to your personal preference you're following their lead (as well as the standards for the US Church).
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Post by pianistclare on Sept 6, 2017 19:24:52 GMT
The only think our pastor ever said anything about, was the one woman who would prostrate herself on the floor in the center aisle at the end of Mass. It was a hazard, and really inappropriate. He asked her not to do it, but did allow her to at Adoration in an out of the way place where she was not causing a spectacle. In the meantime she wrote dozens of bizarre and accusatory emails to the entire staff and he ended up asking her to not read or distribute communion because of her antics. She's busy trashing him at another parish. The Diocese is well aware of the entire story. The reason I say all this, is, that while priests can state preferences, so long people are respectful in disagreements, most pastors don't make a big fuss about things. It's when we get all up in their faces that things go badly. I know the OP to be a very reverent and peaceful man. I'm sure his standing won't cause any undo kerfuffle in the parish.
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Post by tawny on Sept 6, 2017 20:14:31 GMT
I would do whatever you're most comfortable doing, Communion rail present or not. Whether one receives standing or kneeling; it's the state of your soul at the time that matters. I really do not think the Good Lord cares if we stand or kneel for reception of Communion or receive on the tongue or in the hand for that matter. The only thing he asks is that we be in the State of Grace. That's all we need to remember. God bless.
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Post by pianistclare on Sept 6, 2017 20:20:25 GMT
I would do whatever you're most comfortable doing, Communion rail present or not. Whether one receives standing or kneeling; it's the state of your soul at the time that matters. I really do not think the Good Lord cares if we stand or kneel for reception of Communion or receive on the tongue or in the hand for that matter. The only thing he asks is that we be in the State of Grace. That's all we need to remember. God bless. Excellent response. Very true. I imagine on the last day, Jesus will look at us and laugh at some of the restrictions we put on His love.
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Post by glennonp on Sept 8, 2017 19:41:32 GMT
I would say that it's not merely "giving in to peer pressure" to kneel if your pastor has requested that parishioners do so. Even if he's not a personal friend the way your previous pastor was, he is charged with helping his flock grow spiritually and this is something he felt like saying something about. Even if it's not your preference, would you see a benefit in kneeling to receive as a matter of obedience to your pastor? I have thought of this. I don't believe either pastor is doing it for any other reason than they think it's the best for the parishioners. There certainly could be a spiritual benefit to acceding to their preference out of obedience.
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Post by glennonp on Sept 8, 2017 19:43:48 GMT
It seems kind of awkward, no matter what you do. It seems to me that when we're at Mass we cease to be individuals and become one worshiping body. So as much as possible, our voices should blend together, our posture should blend together, and ideally, our minds and hearts should blend together. So that would argue for doing what the majority is doing, even if it's not your first choice. (And of course, one can only do what one can do. If you can't kneel for communion, then don't. If you can't stand through the gospel, then don't. Etc.) But the other side is that the pastor has decided that his parish isn't part of the one worshiping body as defined by the GIRM. The US bishops have said the norm is to stand. And your various pastors have said, "make me." So they've already eliminated unity of posture as a value in favor of their personal preference. If you stand due to your personal preference you're following their lead (as well as the standards for the US Church). Interesting point.
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otjm
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Post by otjm on Sept 28, 2017 19:41:26 GMT
I would say that it's not merely "giving in to peer pressure" to kneel if your pastor has requested that parishioners do so. Even if he's not a personal friend the way your previous pastor was, he is charged with helping his flock grow spiritually and this is something he felt like saying something about. Even if it's not your preference, would you see a benefit in kneeling to receive as a matter of obedience to your pastor? I have thought of this. I don't believe either pastor is doing it for any other reason than they think it's the best for the parishioners. There certainly could be a spiritual benefit to acceding to their preference out of obedience. For decades, we have had a rousing chorus about priests who "ad lib" through the Mass, add, subtract, modify, and etc. Kneeling, however, does have a background of centuries of tradition. How we got to having altar rails is an entirely different question, however, and I will leave it to liturgical historians to sort that one out. However, I classify the pastor's move to have the altar rail and to have everyone kneeling in about the same category as the argument about having only altar boys, because that increases vocations (as if nothing in the last 50 years has changed in society, and as if we are not seeing young women join convents, who in their youth served at the altar). The general thinking of those who agitate for the return of the Communion rails is that "people will be more reverent". My response is along the lines of "hog wash". Reverence is a response to what we believe. It may, in some, beget emotions, but reverence is not an emotion; it is an attitude of respect - often profound respect. People can (and in my parish, people do) exhibit reverence in receiving Communion while standing; perhaps part of that is due to the fact that for something like 25 years we have had Perpetual Adoration. We get it. Another point that many, if not most do not see is that We stand for the Lamb Of God and remain standing through the "Lord I am not worthy; then proceed to Communion. First, it was bordering on liturgical "bouncing up and down" to kneel for the Lamb of God; but there is more. Recall that the recent GIRM (last or previous) indicated that all were to stand after receiving until all had received (and was resolved by a dubium from the Late Cardinal George). However, what was never really made clear in most places was that the standing at the Lamb of God was the start of what was to be a procession; and that procession continued through reception of Communion and return to the bench. To give another example, for those who have attended the Chrism Mass in Holy Week, the priests of the dioceses all go into the cathedral in procession and remain standing until the bishop arrives and starts the Mass. Kneeling for Communion breaks that procession, and returns (to some extent) the reception of Communion to a private, individual event. While it is individual, it is also a community which receives. It has a tendency, at least to some degree, to remove the aspect of the communal Sacred Meal and revert to an individual pious act. We have a parish, Dominican, which has the altar rail and has continued to use it through all the changes. I personally find the movement of the priest (each of whom move as quickly as possible down the rail) to be more distracting than coming up to the priest, deacon or EMHC, bowing (to the Blessed Sacrament, not to someone's backside), and responding to "Body of Christ" and receiving. the latter takes a little bit longer - but why the rush? in short, I find standing every bit as, if not more, reverent than kneeling. It is more awkward to receive in the hand, and a bit hazardous to receive from the Cup (which of course provides the excuse not to present the Cup). To the OP - I understand your conflict, and I agree with you. If it bothers you enough, and if it is possible, I would suggest going to another parish. Once the altar rails were put in, the die was cast. And if it is not possible (or practical), then in the words of my grandmother - offer it up for the poor souls (and kneel). Yes, there is the issue of - maybe not obedience, but acquiescence to the pastor. I owe obedience to the Magisterium and to my bishop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 6:47:45 GMT
This is obviously about the western/roman churches so my input, despite being three years late to the party, will also be irrelevant. But for those who didn't know, the early Church forbid kneeling during the Divine Liturgy (Mass). Kneeling was for penance. east2west.org/sp_faq/standing-vs-kneeling/
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Post by pianistclare on Dec 12, 2020 15:17:45 GMT
Quite right. In the early church it was also considered a denial of the Resurrection to lower oneself during a Sunday Mass.
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