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Post by pianistclare on Jan 4, 2021 18:26:53 GMT
Christ Present in the Holy Eucharist is indeed what matters. It's the source and summit of our faith for that very reason. I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Can you demonstrate for us anywhere that Jesus Christ said, only go to liturgy is it's perfect by your own standards? I suspect your "challenges" were not well received by the Priests and Deacons.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 23:22:13 GMT
@jimr "I couldn't imagine not receiving Holy Communion when I attend Mass".
Nor I. But I am sure you would agree with me that there is more to the Liturgy than just the Eucharist. ALL of the Liturgy is necessary to the faith and edifying to one's soul. If one doesn't make it to confession in time, that doesn't mean they ought to skip the Liturgy, or that if they can't receive communion then there isn't anything to be gained from going to Liturgy. My point was only that the Liturgy has value itself, with the Eucharist being the crown. Neither should be thought of apart from one another, much less in conflict. But to suggest that the Eucharist is all we are about or the single most important thing, is to diminish the integrity and incomprehensible value the Divine Liturgy brings to our souls.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2021 0:05:13 GMT
@jimr "I couldn't imagine not receiving Holy Communion when I attend Mass". Nor I. But I am sure you would agree with me that there is more to the Liturgy than just the Eucharist. ALL of the Liturgy is necessary to the faith and edifying to one's soul. If one doesn't make it to confession in time, that doesn't mean they ought to skip the Liturgy, or that if they can't receive communion then there isn't anything to be gained from going to Liturgy. My point was only that the Liturgy has value itself, with the Eucharist being the crown. Neither should be thought of apart from one another, much less in conflict. But to suggest that the Eucharist is all we are about or the single most important thing, is to diminish the integrity and incomprehensible value the Divine Liturgy brings to our souls. It's the high-light of the Liturgy. There is the Liturgy of the Hours which is a Liturgy, but it doesn't compare to the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Attending Mass without receiving Communion does bring blessings, but the Eucharist itself is a Sacrament and the center of the Liturgy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2021 5:38:59 GMT
@jimr Hence why I called the Eucharist the crown of the Liturgy. But this is where East and West differ. In the West, the Liturgy/Mass is something a Roman Catholic "does". In Eastern Orthodoxy/Eastern Catholicism, the Liturgy is what we live. It's not something I can easily put into words and was something I didn't grasp initially upon attending EC and EO churches. It was what I kept hearing from others over and over again and I thought it sounded very poetic and nice, but I couldn't comprehend it. But it comes with experience. The more one attends an Eastern Divine Liturgy (especially in the Orthodox Church), the more one finds it transforming. The Eucharist is part of the Liturgy. The highest point and greatest good. But we don't look at Liturgy apart from Eucharist. The Eucharist is part of the Liturgy, not the other way around. And Christ is present in the entire Liturgy. Not in the same literal/physical way He is present in Holy Communion, but present all the same. The Roman Church developed a hyper focus on the Eucharist, above the Liturgy, due to the protestant reformation and having the Eucharist attacked, thus Rome being forced to focus more on the Eucharist. This can still be seen today when people will try to dismiss a horridly done liturgy as being secondary or "ok" because, "Christ is still in the Eucharist". In the East, there hasn't been anything to the scale of the protestant reformation and the Eucharist has never come under attack in the way it has in the West, so the East has remained focused on the Eucharist within the context of the Liturgy. This is also why the East does not practice Eucharistic Adoration the way the West does. Adoration was part of the Roman Church's response to the attacks on the Eucharist by protestants. And I'm not knocking it. Unlike Mary or the Saints, it's literally impossible to worship or venerate God "too" much. So I'm not trying to say East is better than West. I'm just trying to point out that due to the reformation, the West took a different view of Eucharist and Liturgy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2021 15:23:14 GMT
In the West, the Liturgy/Mass is something a Roman Catholic "does". In Eastern Orthodoxy/Eastern Catholicism, the Liturgy is what we liveit's no different in the Roman Catholic Church either and it's a matter of the terms used. For Roman Catholics myself, also a Discalced Carmelite Secular OCDS, living a contemplative life is the desire for full union with Christ, or as St John of the Cross called it, "the Spiritual Marriage," of the soul with her beloved, Christ Jesus. Most Catholics do not follow a Contemplative life and many don't even know what it is. In fact at CAF when Contemplation and Contemplative Prayer was first made, people attacked it as being "New Age." My nieces husband is an Eastern Orthodox of the Antioch branch. We have conversed this past year more than ever and he's been surprised how much I know about Eastern Orthodox Spirituality. I have the full set of the Philokalia which was a surprise to him. But in honesty, I've only gotten through the first chapters. The first part about Jesus temptation in the desert, was spot on and meditating on that alone, kept me from moving on. Volume IV takes too many shots against the Roman Catholic Church, so I didn't bother with it.
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