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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 15, 2020 4:10:19 GMT
My parish church was built in the 1950s. The altar rail fell out of use following Vatican II and was removed in a renovation in 1992. In early 2016, we renovated again and the pastor (different than the one in 1992) reinstalled the altar rail. He strongly encouraged parishioners to kneel for Communion and nearly all did, me included. After the bruising "to kneel or not to kneel" battles at TOP, I felt a little uncomfortable being "forced" via peer pressure and the pastor's strong encouragement to kneel receiving Communion. I did it out of respect for the pastor, a personal friend since our college days in the early 1980s. We received a new pastor in June. He too strongly encouraged us to receive kneeling, saying that "those who cannot kneel due to age or infirmity are of course welcome to stand". Absent the personal friendship I had with the old pastor, I didn't feel the same need to kneel to receive when his replacement arrived. Recently, a handful of able-bodied parishioners have begun standing to receive Communion and in the past few weeks I have too. I'm really conflicted about this. My reluctance to kneel is based in large part on the "kneeling is the holier way to receive" posts at TOP. Those really rubbed me the wrong way. I know that the USCCB has stated that the normal posture for receiving in the U.S. is standing but the Vatican has also made it crystal clear that persons are also allowed to kneel. So both postures and valid and licit in the U.S. And I know that inner disposition is more important than external posture. I never minded the people who knelt while most of us were standing; that was their choice to make, not mine. Here's my conflict: If I kneel, I feel like I'm giving in to peer pressure. If I stand, I feel like I'm calling attention to myself. In either case, my reception of Communion lately has been tarnished by this conflicting set of emotions. Any thoughts on how I can/should resolve this? I appreciate your input.
Great post, would love to try and answer this as I believe I understand where you are coming from, first a bit of background.
I was raised in the Novus Ordo Mass, it's all I have ever known, when I was confirmed I was taught to receive Communion standing and in the hands and so I had received that way for a long time and I had not ever in my life seen another person receive kneeling and on the tongue.
When myself and other family members began studying the faith further, we came to the conclusion that receiving kneeling and on the tongue was true, more reverent and something that should very much be encouraged. At first I was given the "it's sinful/wrong" line from my brother, which of course the response is how can I be so bad when it's all I have ever known and they say it's fine? but really, this whole holier then thou stuff is a distraction, a distraction from the truth, who cares what they or anybody else thinks, just what God thinks and what is the best thing to do.
Firstly, we truly believe that the Sacred Host is truly the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.... and if Our Lord Jesus Christ were to appear before us right now, we might say "he knows my heart" but really, my heart compels me to kneel before my Lord and my God, I want to do it, I don't care about the arguments, it's what I want to do.
Secondly, the Priest cleans the Altar Linens and Sacred Vessels with great care and in a special way (a special sink to properly dispose of any particles of our Lord). In the same way when we receive on the hands and handle Our Lord, particles may be left on our hands.
Thirdly, we genuflect when entering our pew, we kneel during Mass before Our Lord, so then at the pinnacle of the Holy Mass when we receive Our Lord Himself, why would we not want to kneel? It's safer in terms of handling the Host and it's more reverent, how the Saints of old also received communion, if we can kneel why not? The holier then thou crowd are irrelevant, the idea that others might perceive you to be 'showy' is irrelevant, for me I'm the odd one out receiving on a knee and on the tongue worried about judgments from others, but it's true, more reverent and my heart compels me to do it so if I am able bodied why not?
There are other arguments too but I can't recall them all off the top of my head right now, hopefully this is enough though and helps.
God Bless You
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Post by pianistclare on Dec 15, 2020 16:06:24 GMT
bottom line, does anyone REALLY believe that the Apostles who were at the first Eucharist, in the PRESECENCE of Christ, believe that they received on the tongue and kneeling?
These are thing that distract from the love and worthy reception of the Lord into OUR HEARTS. I can't abide this bickering. Do whatever the pastor will permit and stop arguing with them. No one really appreciates how difficult it is to BE a priest until you work for 20 or 30 of them. Blessings yes. Herding casts? yes. This is precisely why there are fringe groups . no bueno.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 23:53:16 GMT
pianistclare It seems probable that communion in the hand was the original practice in most churches in the beginning. But it's also well documented that this practice went away....quickly. And afterwards many saints and patristic fathers have spoken against the practice, some very strongly. Communion in the hand is bad. There's no defense for it. But the Roman Church permits it. In this particular regard, Rome made a mistake. Communion in the hand is not an infallible teaching so it's perfectly reasonable and I'd argue, charitable, to point it out as a mistake. The reasons are many and I'd rather not get into it again as it usually starts a lengthy discourse. At the end of the day, nobody is sinning by receiving communion in the hand. But it doesn't change the fact that it's bad and that they shouldn't be doing it.
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Post by josh987654321 on Dec 16, 2020 10:28:38 GMT
bottom line, does anyone REALLY believe that the Apostles who were at the first Eucharist, in the PRESECENCE of Christ, believe that they received on the tongue and kneeling? I don't know, but since it doesn't say, you're just guessing. I don't want to base my conclusion on a guess especially when there are many more reasons as to why I believe it's better to receive on the tongue and on the knee (if able bodied). These are thing that distract from the love and worthy reception of the Lord into OUR HEARTS. Quite the contrary, it's only a distraction if you're worried about judgements from other people, which should be irrelevant, but as for the practice itself, if it's in your heart why the resistance to it? Why do we genuflect and kneel during Mass? Can I lay down in the pew during Mass? I can't abide this bickering. Huh? I wasn't bickering, you can receive the former if you like, but as for myself it will be on the knee and on the tongue because it feels much better and through reason and tradition I believe is a much better practice and thus is a good thing to be encouraged. Do whatever the pastor will permit and stop arguing with them. No one really appreciates how difficult it is to BE a priest until you work for 20 or 30 of them. This is precisely why there are fringe groups . no bueno. This appears to be a sensitive topic for you, which means there is a back story here I don't know about, care to elaborate? God Bless
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 15:58:28 GMT
bottom line, does anyone REALLY believe that the Apostles who were at the first Eucharist, in the PRESECENCE of Christ, believe that they received on the tongue and kneeling? I don't know, but since it doesn't say, you're just guessing. I don't want to base my conclusion on a guess especially when there are many more reasons as to why I believe it's better to receive on the tongue and on the knee (if able bodied). Then you need to learn Church History, for the practice of receiving on the tongue while kneeling didn't come about until much later.
These are thing that distract from the love and worthy reception of the Lord into OUR HEARTS. Quite the contrary, it's only a distraction if you're worried about judgements from other people, which should be irrelevant, but as for the practice itself, if it's in your heart why the resistance to it? Why do we genuflect and kneel during Mass? Can I lay down in the pew during Mass? It's more of a distraction and harmful spiritually, if everyone receives standing and you like making yourself standout as more pious by kneeling. I can't abide this bickering. Huh? I wasn't bickering, you can receive the former if you like, but as for myself it will be on the knee and on the tongue because it feels much better and through reason and tradition I believe is a much better practice and thus is a good thing to be encouraged. You should receive according to the norms your Bishop has put out in your dioceses and what how the people in the parish receive when you attend Mass there. In other words, don't draw attention to yourself by standing out from the others.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 18:53:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 19:35:37 GMT
This is correct and in the East, standing was the proper posture for prayer. Also, a church constructed in a rectangular shape as most in the West are, was not the same in the East Most were round with the people in an arch around the altar. The concept of rectangular shaped churches came after Constantine legalized Christianity and donated Roman government building to the Church. These buildings were constructed in a rectangular shape with the members sitting on each side and the leader at the head. Behind him would've been a large shelf to hold manuscripts and books were were large and heavy. These became altars for Mass once the Church began using them. I know some Catholics have a hard time understanding, but the Novus Ordo as the Church evolved toward, was really closer to how Mass was celebrated in the Early Church.
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Post by pianistclare on Jan 1, 2021 20:47:44 GMT
To state that "no one knows" if the Apostles received in the hand, is just nonsense. There is nothing in the Jewish Passover Liturgy or meal, that has the head of the household putting food in anyone's mouth. Both are permitted. We should concentrate on the real presence instead of peering into the souls of the recipient behind or in front of us. Indeed, lowering oneself on the day of Resurrections (Sunday) was considered a denial of the Resurrection of Christ. Eventually a concern about "crumbs" changed the altar bread into hard white hosts, and the notion that no one could touch it but the priest. And that didn't happen for a very long time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 5:03:44 GMT
To state that "no one knows" if the Apostles received in the hand, is just nonsense. There is nothing in the Jewish Passover Liturgy or meal, that has the head of the household putting food in anyone's mouth. Both are permitted. We should concentrate on the real presence instead of peering into the souls of the recipient behind or in front of us. Indeed, lowering oneself on the day of Resurrections (Sunday) was considered a denial of the Resurrection of Christ. Eventually a concern about "crumbs" changed the altar bread into hard white hosts, and the notion that no one could touch it but the priest. And that didn't happen for a very long time. Communion in the hand was done away with very very quickly in the early Church. It was seen as problematic and thus the switch to using a spoon or perhaps intinction (depending on the church).
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oneofthewomen
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Post by oneofthewomen on Jan 3, 2021 14:58:47 GMT
To state that "no one knows" if the Apostles received in the hand, is just nonsense. There is nothing in the Jewish Passover Liturgy or meal, that has the head of the household putting food in anyone's mouth. Both are permitted. We should concentrate on the real presence instead of peering into the souls of the recipient behind or in front of us. Indeed, lowering oneself on the day of Resurrections (Sunday) was considered a denial of the Resurrection of Christ. Eventually a concern about "crumbs" changed the altar bread into hard white hosts, and the notion that no one could touch it but the priest. And that didn't happen for a very long time. Communion in the hand was done away with very very quickly in the early Church. It was seen as problematic and thus the switch to using a spoon or perhaps intinction (depending on the church). I may have come about rather quickly, but I will guess it had nothing at all to do with seeking "more reverence" and had everything to do with the growing elitism and clericalism as Christianity grew. The "peasants" only needed to see their Priest/Bishop say Mass, that was "good enough". In fact, it was centuries of this elitism/clericalism that made the 2nd Vatican Council necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 22:51:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 23:08:10 GMT
To state that "no one knows" if the Apostles received in the hand, is just nonsense. There is nothing in the Jewish Passover Liturgy or meal, that has the head of the household putting food in anyone's mouth. Both are permitted. We should concentrate on the real presence instead of peering into the souls of the recipient behind or in front of us. Indeed, lowering oneself on the day of Resurrections (Sunday) was considered a denial of the Resurrection of Christ. Eventually a concern about "crumbs" changed the altar bread into hard white hosts, and the notion that no one could touch it but the priest. And that didn't happen for a very long time. Communion in the hand was done away with very very quickly in the early Church. It was seen as problematic and thus the switch to using a spoon or perhaps intinction (depending on the church). Not until the 4th century and then it wasn't the norm throughout the Church. St Basil wrote against it, but also permitted reception in the hand during times of persecution. Of course we have to consider that people in those days worked with their hands often doing dirty jobs. Hands were generally not very clean among the male population back then. So, removing reception on the hand moved in that direction. Of course receiving Holy Communion also became less often than after Vatican II. I recall when I was a kid in the 1950's, it was a minority of the congregation who went up to receive. How pathetic was that ? Jesus desires us to receive him which is why he established the sacrament to begin with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 1:38:57 GMT
How pathetic was that ? Jesus desires us to receive him which is why he established the sacrament to begin with. I disagree. Frequent communion was not practiced in the Early Church. The desert Fathers would go for years, decades even, without access to the Holy Eucharist. Yet they are among the greatest saints in Christendom. Now I'm not suggesting that we should all be receiving Holy Communion less. That would be absurd. But to suggest that we all ought to be receiving it daily-weekly-frequently is out of place with early tradition. Frequent reception can cheapen the relationship we have with the Eucharist. I remember when I first became Roman Catholic, if I couldn't make it to confession in time before Mass, I wouldn't even want to go. What was the point, I would think, if I can't receive Holy Communion? My entire faith existed around reception of Holy Communion. Yet for all my effort in my battles against habitual sin, frequent reception of Holy Communion and my honest prayers were not helping me (at least not in ways that I recognized or were able to take advantage of). Yet in the few months that I've been going exclusively to the Orthodox Church, I have made strides in overcoming habitual sins. And this has been accomplished, despite being in a state of sin, having not been to confession in almost 2 years! My prayer rule and involvement in the Divine Liturgy have been transforming. For the Orthodoxy, the Eucharist is indeed the crown of the Divine Liturgy, but it is the Liturgy itself upon which we form our faith. This is probably why I was so uncomfortable with the nominal response I would get as an RC when I would challenge to the priests or deacons about all the abuses or watered down aspects of the novus ordo liturgy and the apathy of the people, etc. I was always told, "Things aren't perfect, but at the end of the day, Christ is still in the Eucharist. And that's what matters". I disagree. If my choices are going to a terrible liturgy that sucks the spirit out of people, that just so happens to have a valid Eucharist, or go to a transcending Divine Liturgy where Heaven and Earth meet in a tangible way that you can experience with all your senses, and also happens to have a valid Eucharist, is it "really" a choice?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 1:41:07 GMT
oneofthewomen The opinion of the Eastern Catholic Churches is that Vatican II became necessary because of the problems created by Vatican I. The Orthodox would agree but would also point much further back in history, obviously.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 15:44:05 GMT
How pathetic was that ? Jesus desires us to receive him which is why he established the sacrament to begin with. I disagree. Frequent communion was not practiced in the Early Church. The desert Fathers would go for years, decades even, without access to the Holy Eucharist. Yet they are among the greatest saints in Christendom. Now I'm not suggesting that we should all be receiving Holy Communion less. That would be absurd. But to suggest that we all ought to be receiving it daily-weekly-frequently is out of place with early tradition. Frequent reception can cheapen the relationship we have with the Eucharist. I remember when I first became Roman Catholic, if I couldn't make it to confession in time before Mass, I wouldn't even want to go. What was the point, I would think, if I can't receive Holy Communion? My entire faith existed around reception of Holy Communion. Yet for all my effort in my battles against habitual sin, frequent reception of Holy Communion and my honest prayers were not helping me (at least not in ways that I recognized or were able to take advantage of). Yet in the few months that I've been going exclusively to the Orthodox Church, I have made strides in overcoming habitual sins. And this has been accomplished, despite being in a state of sin, having not been to confession in almost 2 years! My prayer rule and involvement in the Divine Liturgy have been transforming. For the Orthodoxy, the Eucharist is indeed the crown of the Divine Liturgy, but it is the Liturgy itself upon which we form our faith. This is probably why I was so uncomfortable with the nominal response I would get as an RC when I would challenge to the priests or deacons about all the abuses or watered down aspects of the novus ordo liturgy and the apathy of the people, etc. I was always told, "Things aren't perfect, but at the end of the day, Christ is still in the Eucharist. And that's what matters". I disagree. If my choices are going to a terrible liturgy that sucks the spirit out of people, that just so happens to have a valid Eucharist, or go to a transcending Divine Liturgy where Heaven and Earth meet in a tangible way that you can experience with all your senses, and also happens to have a valid Eucharist, is it "really" a choice? Not until centuries later did receiving Holy Communion become rare, and for many it was because of the lack of priests. However, the early Christians of the Apostolic Age, received Communion every time they met and celebrated the Eucharist. Later as the Church got more involved with the political power structures of Western Europe, Communion was used like a weapon against those Catholics who didn't stay in line. Reception of Holy Communion by then was infrequent. However, the Saints, especially those who had apparitions and locutions, were instructed to receive frequently and they did. Jesus never intended for people to stay away from receiving Holy Communion at each Mass and St Pope John XXIII knew it when he called for Vatican II. BTW, receiving the gift of faith happens for many like myself, before returning to the Church. I couldn't imagine not receiving Holy Communion when I attend Mass.
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