bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 197
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Post by bluekumul on Aug 14, 2023 13:54:29 GMT
What does it mean that "all Israel will be saved"? (Romans 11:26) Will ALL Jews go to Heaven no matter what they do?
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 14, 2023 22:38:54 GMT
We can certainly hope that everybody, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, will go to Heaven.
However, that verse is not saying that all Jews go to Heaven regardless of their thoughts and actions on earth.
Read in context of the whole chapter, Paul is saying that he believes the Jewish unbelief will open the door to the conversion of the Gentiles, and then when the Gentiles are all converted the Jewish people who have not converted will do so.
Almost all the Church fathers interpreted that section as indicating that just before the end of the world, we will see Jewish people converting en masse to Christianity, and thus be saved. So if you ever see that happening, better start getting ready yourself for the end.
A couple of Church fathers interpreted it alternatively as using the word "Israel" to refer to the overall group of Christian believers, whether they are converted Jews or not. But this is a really small minority view.
Of course the Church also likes to say "it's a mystery" while noting that the Jewish people continue to be special to God because they were the first to believe in him and follow him, and so he will take special care of them.
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Post by theguvnor on Aug 15, 2023 10:01:10 GMT
I'm hoping I will meet my wife's grandfather again and continue our endless arguments about politics and literature. Although I was often on the losing side he was a man of great wisdom and compassion. Mind you as he was an atheist he might be surprised to meet me.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 15, 2023 11:15:58 GMT
I have a couple Jewish friends I am hoping to see again.
One had converted to Unitarianism or something similar.
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 197
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Post by bluekumul on Aug 15, 2023 12:50:40 GMT
So what does the phrase "all Israel" mean here?
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Post by theguvnor on Aug 15, 2023 13:08:47 GMT
I'd side with the minority tradition of seeing it as all members of the Church. But as Bear mentioned that is a minority outlook and she offers numerous other points of view.
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 197
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Post by bluekumul on Aug 15, 2023 13:35:08 GMT
It seems that "all" could mean "Jewish people in general", as in "all Jews" celebrate Hanukkah" which doesn't mean "every single individual".
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 15, 2023 13:48:15 GMT
So what does the phrase "all Israel" mean here? As I said above, most Church fathers thought it referred to the Jewish people only. A small subset of Church fathers thought it referred to the whole group of believers whether Jewish or non-Jewish. The Church tends to follow the views of the Church fathers but as shown above there is a little debate even between them. In any event, Church teaching is that other than canonized saints already in Heaven, we have no way of knowing for sure who is saved or not so we simply have hope for all. It does not teach that any particular group of people on earth are all automatically saved (with the possible exception of baptized infants who die before reaching the age of reason), regardless of how one interprets the word Israel. |
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zerg
New Member
Posts: 29 
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Post by zerg on Aug 15, 2023 14:15:58 GMT
What does it mean that "all Israel will be saved"? (Romans 11:26) Will ALL Jews go to Heaven no matter what they do? My catechism book says that salvation sprung from the Jews, because Jesus was a Jew. At Easter we pray at mass for the salvation of the Jews, who should be part of our church. PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT ASK any more questions about Judaism, it is VERY Offensive to Jews, EVEN on a Catholic site. Please. |
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Post by theguvnor on Aug 15, 2023 14:49:43 GMT
I don't find it overly offensive and I'm married to someone with Jewish heritage. I don't think my wife Svetlana would find it offensive and I know her grandfather who was Jewish would not.
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 15, 2023 16:26:25 GMT
What does it mean that "all Israel will be saved"? (Romans 11:26) Will ALL Jews go to Heaven no matter what they do? My catechism book says that salvation sprung from the Jews, because Jesus was a Jew. At Easter we pray at mass for the salvation of the Jews, who should be part of our church. PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT ASK any more questions about Judaism, it is VERY Offensive to Jews, EVEN on a Catholic site. Please. With respect, the Jewish people are part of Christian salvation history and this is a Catholic forum. No one is saying anything disrespectful here. Jewish people might disagree with or not like St Paul's scripture or the Church Fathers' interpretation, but we aren't required to never speak of those things, especially in an appropriate spot like on our own Catholic discussion forum. Of course I would not cruise into a synagogue or my workplace and start making religious speeches. |
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Post by ralfy on Aug 17, 2023 2:31:11 GMT
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 17, 2023 6:24:17 GMT
My catechism book says that salvation sprung from the Jews, because Jesus was a Jew. At Easter we pray at mass for the salvation of the Jews, who should be part of our church. PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT ASK any more questions about Judaism, it is VERY Offensive to Jews, EVEN on a Catholic site. Please. With respect, the Jewish people are part of Christian salvation history and this is a Catholic forum. No one is saying anything disrespectful here. Jewish people might disagree with or not like St Paul's scripture or the Church Fathers' interpretation, but we aren't required to never speak of those things, especially in an appropriate spot like on our own Catholic discussion forum. Of course I would not cruise into a synagogue or my workplace and start making religious speeches. On a kind of side note, I read recently of a rabbi who asked that Christians please not attempt to mimic Jewish rites (such as a Passover Seder), even assuming the best of intentions (such as to pay tribute to the Jewish origins of Christianity). I totally get that. It would be kind of like a non-Christian congregation, for whatever reason, having their minister to vest similarly to a priest and offer a "Mass". Not sure how he would have received my son and me, a few years ago, having a Hanukkah observance, complete with a menorah (got it at Goodwill), candles (we used birthday candles, it's all we had), a dreidel, and Hanukkah gelt (plastic coins). Hanukkah contradicts Christianity in no way whatsoever, in fact, it's an affirmation of a book found in Catholic Bibles but not Protestant ones, but I can imagine that a Jew might have seen us as posers. My son went to school and gleefully wrote an essay saying "we are a Jewish family and we celebrate Hanukkah", after which I had to go to the teacher and sheepishly tell her that we weren't Jewish! |
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Post by tisbearself on Aug 17, 2023 11:22:21 GMT
With respect, the Jewish people are part of Christian salvation history and this is a Catholic forum. No one is saying anything disrespectful here. Jewish people might disagree with or not like St Paul's scripture or the Church Fathers' interpretation, but we aren't required to never speak of those things, especially in an appropriate spot like on our own Catholic discussion forum. Of course I would not cruise into a synagogue or my workplace and start making religious speeches. On a kind of side note, I read recently of a rabbi who asked that Christians please not attempt to mimic Jewish rites (such as a Passover Seder), even assuming the best of intentions (such as to pay tribute to the Jewish origins of Christianity). I totally get that. It would be kind of like a non-Christian congregation, for whatever reason, having their minister to vest similarly to a priest and offer a "Mass". Not sure how he would have received my son and me, a few years ago, having a Hanukkah observance, complete with a menorah (got it at Goodwill), candles (we used birthday candles, it's all we had), a dreidel, and Hanukkah gelt (plastic coins). Hanukkah contradicts Christianity in no way whatsoever, in fact, it's an affirmation of a book found in Catholic Bibles but not Protestant ones, but I can imagine that a Jew might have seen us as posers. My son went to school and gleefully wrote an essay saying "we are a Jewish family and we celebrate Hanukkah", after which I had to go to the teacher and sheepishly tell her that we weren't Jewish! In recent years, Catholic priests, at least the more recently ordained, have also told Catholics that they shouldn’t try to imitate Jewish practices like the Seder. The “Catholic Seder” was popular at parishes in the 70s when people thought they were being ecumenical and following early Christian tradition by having one. Occasionally I still see some progressive parish hosting one. It’s cringeworthy really. |
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Post by theguvnor on Aug 17, 2023 12:50:52 GMT
Totally cringeworthy. I know quite a lot about Judaism but no amount of knowledge will make me Jewish. So it just looks silly and as though people are playing around when doing this stuff. The intent may be noble but the execution would be odd I think.
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