Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2023 23:49:14 GMT
Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev (1906-1982), General-Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union from 1964 - 1982, was a native of the town of Kamianske in the east-central Dnipropetrovsk Oblast of Ukraine. Brezhnev was born, grew up in, and started his Party career in Dnipropetrovsk. He variously identified as a Russian and as a Ukrainian, which is not surprising given the line between the two ethnicities was extremely fluid in Brezhnev's time. Brezhnev's eighteen year rule of the USSR is remembered fondly in Russia and many other former Soviet states, for his rule was characterised by peace on the domestic front, a slow rise in the standard of living, the end of the arbitrary persecution against the institution of the Russian Orthodox Church, no mass repressions, and a balanced and conservative attitude to the order of society, which Brezhnev termed "developed socialism". Even in Ukraine, 47% of respondents in 2018 claimed to have a positive view of Brezhnev's rule. Under eighteen years of Brezhnev's rule, only around 200 Orthodox churches were closed, whereas his predecessor Khrushchev had closed around 18,000 in 5 years. In the 1970s, there were around 7,500 Orthodox and 1,100 Catholic parishes legally functioning on the territory of the USSR. For the Russian Church, Brezhnev guaranteed a protected though restricted place in society. His wife and mother were both believers, and one of his last acts before his death was to transfer the Danilov Monastery back to the Russian Orthodox Church and to ask the Patriarch of Moscow to serve a Divine Liturgy for his soul. In his 1979 autobiography, he actually reminisced about how the "spiritual needs of the citizens of Kamianske were taken care of" by the Orthodox and Catholic churches of that city. In his hometown of Kamianske, which is on the territory of Ukraine still controlled by the Ukrainian government, many still remember him fondly. Since 1976, a statue dedicated to "four-time Hero of the Soviet Union L. I. Brezhnev" has stood in the centre of Kamianske. In 2020, it was moved to the main town square, which was declared an open-air museum in order to exempt the Brezhnev statue from Ukraine's decommunisation laws. In 2020, the Mayor of Kamianske said that it was necessary for older citizens of the city to be able to "honour and lay flowers at the monument to our legendary countryman", hence it would not be demolished. Since 2022, pressure has been mounting to demolish the monument - some are upset that after 18 months of Russian aggression, a statue to Brezhnev still stands in the centre of Kamianske. However, many local residents surveyed opposed any change. Nonetheless, the Mayor of Kamianske had the monument removed in July 2023. Nonetheless, rather than destroying it, he had it moved to another outdoor area, which is on the grounds of a local museum, but appears to be a normal park. He said that Brezhnev had done many good things for Kamianske and that many older residents of the city still want to be able to honour him, hence the statue would be permanently moved to the park on the grounds of this museum. This, he said, will comply will decommunisation laws, the desire of some residents of the city to remove a monument to the Soviet past, whilst also ensuring that Brezhnev is still remembered and can be honoured by citizens of Kamianske. When the monument was taken down from the central square in July 2023, a small group of residents held placards protesting the move. Nonetheless, the monument now stands tall on its pedestal in a park next to the local history museum, so although it no longer stands prominently in the town square, it stills stands intact in a public park, and people can still come and see it. The position of the Brezhnev monument in the town square from 2020-2023. The new position of the Brezhnev monument in a park near the local museum:
|
|
bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
|
Post by bluekumul on Aug 19, 2023 11:17:20 GMT
He was better than Stalin, but this doesn't mean he was a good leader. I approve of the Ukrainian government's action. From: www.britannica.com/biography/Leonid-Ilich-Brezhnev* Supported “wars of national liberation” in developing countries through the provision of military aid to left-wing movements and governments. * Helped plan General Wojciech Jaruzelski’s suppression of Poland’s Solidarity union [which was supported by the Pope John Paul II] in December 1981. * Gave the Soviet Union a formidable military-industrial base capable of supplying large numbers of the most modern weapons, but in so doing he impoverished the rest of the Soviet economy
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 11:56:05 GMT
He was better than Stalin, but this doesn't mean he was a good leader. I approve of the Ukrainian government's action. From: www.britannica.com/biography/Leonid-Ilich-Brezhnev* Supported “wars of national liberation” in developing countries through the provision of military aid to left-wing movements and governments. * Helped plan General Wojciech Jaruzelski’s suppression of Poland’s Solidarity union [which was supported by the Pope John Paul II] in December 1981. * Gave the Soviet Union a formidable military-industrial base capable of supplying large numbers of the most modern weapons, but in so doing he impoverished the rest of the Soviet economyI agree he was not a "good leader" in the Christian sense, but he was a great deal better than his diabolical predecessors. I have been working on an article which I have preliminarily entitled The Paradox of Soviet Power. Currently at around 3000 words. I may or may not post it here once completed. It outlines my own interpretation of 74 years of Soviet power, which others are of course free to agree or disagree with.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 12:04:25 GMT
As for the Soviet Union, I find the views of the late Metropolitan John of St Petersburg, the Soviet dissident Gennady Mikhailovich Shimanov, and some others quite interesting though I do not agree with them. I find it fascinating to see Christian conservatives interpreting the Soviet era nostalgically. It is so contradictory yet if you study the basis and nature of the Soviet system you will understand that the Union itself was inherently contradictory, being based on the moulding together of the atheistic, scientific-materlalist, communist internationalist worldview of Marxism, and the Russian nationalist, sometimes in a sense very traditional worldview that recognised the importance of spirituality in the history of the nation. Under Lenin and for much of Stalin's rule, the first view prevailed. The last 12 years of Stalin were characterised by a shift towards the second view and even towards Orthodox Christian nationalism. Under Khrushchev it swung right back round to communist internationalism and under Brezhnev it went back to a less extreme and less repressive form of Russian nationalism mixed with respect for the tenacity of the inherent spiritual basis of Russian society, even though the slogans and ideology ostensibly had not changed.
This is a highly simplistic view of course. But sometimes such simplifications are necessary.
|
|
bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
|
Post by bluekumul on Aug 19, 2023 12:51:26 GMT
I have been working on an article which I have preliminarily entitled The Paradox of Soviet Power. Currently at around 3000 words. I may or may not post it here once completed. It outlines my own interpretation of 74 years of Soviet power, which others are of course free to agree or disagree with. I will be delighted to read it.
|
|
bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
|
Post by bluekumul on Aug 19, 2023 13:08:16 GMT
As for conservatives looking nostalgically to the USSR, remember that Marxism was intended to be a working class ideology. The working class is or at least used to be quite conservative socially. Multiculturalism, feminism and gay rights started with intellectuals.
I've read (in 2003?) an essay by Lenin bashing "free love".
|
|
|
Post by tth1 on Aug 19, 2023 14:52:22 GMT
I do not think the Soviet era or any of its leaders are anything to be celebrated. It was a cruel and vicious regime that denied people their basic rights. I am perplexed that people would want to honour a man who led a regime that did the most terrible things to their country and of a country which is once again doing the most terrible things to them.
The Ukraine whilst a flawed democracy was at least working towards becoming a democratic state. Sadly, the peoples of Russia have never known what it is like to live in a democratic country.
|
|
bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
|
Post by bluekumul on Aug 19, 2023 16:14:34 GMT
The Ukraine whilst a flawed democracy was at least working towards becoming a democratic state. Sadly, the peoples of Russia have never known what it is like to live in a democratic country. The Russian people has certain traits which make it difficult to achieve democracy: - believe that they have an unique "Russian soul" (giving them the right to disregard any foreign criticism)
- tend to support their governments unconditionally - frivolous attitude to ideology (yesterday they were playing communism, today they are playing conservatism) - cynical or paranoid attitude to international affairs
There must be many Russians who are aware of these issue and working to overcome them, but there aren't enough to change Russia.
|
|
|
Post by davebj on Aug 19, 2023 16:34:32 GMT
I agree he was not a "good leader" in the Christian sense, but he was a great deal better than his diabolical predecessors. I have been working on an article which I have preliminarily entitled The Paradox of Soviet Power. Currently at around 3000 words. I may or may not post it here once completed. It outlines my own interpretation of 74 years of Soviet power, which others are of course free to agree or disagree with. My Masters was in Soviet studies, and as a Russian-speaking retired intel analyst, most of whose career was focused on the USSR, I look forward to reading your article. Having read a lot of your writings in this forum, I suspect that it will be very much worth reading. Dxx
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 21:35:42 GMT
I do not think the Soviet era or any of its leaders are anything to be celebrated. It was a cruel and vicious regime that denied people their basic rights. I am perplexed that people would want to honour a man who led a regime that did the most terrible things to their country and of a country which is once again doing the most terrible things to them. The Ukraine whilst a flawed democracy was at least working towards becoming a democratic state. Sadly, the peoples of Russia have never known what it is like to live in a democratic country. It was a vicious regime. You are absolutely correct. The premise of it - Marxism-Leninism - was evil. It also existed for 74 years and necessarily there is more to it than meets the eye initially. Multiple generations were born and raised under this regime and it may seem astonishing to us in the West, but the late pre-Gorbachev Soviet period is even remembered in Russia by many over age 50 as a Golden Age. I encourage you to go to YouTube. Put in Леонид Брежнев (Leonid Brezhnev). Then scroll down to the comments section and translate the comments. I just did it on the first video that came up. Comments including "L.I. Brezhnev low bow for a happy childhood ...😢😢😢😢" ; "I was born in the era of BREZHNEV, in 1965, we lived perfectly, there was no social injustice!!! And when he died... we cried... I was 17 years old and I remember that sad day well..." "Dear Leonid Ilyich, we remember, love and thank you. Sleep well." ; "Eternal memory and Kingdom of Heaven to you Leonid Ilyich!" Do I agree with people who think Brezhnev was a great leader? No, I do not. But we have to understand - and I did not understand this for most of my life - that the Soviet experience as remembered by the Soviet people was completely different, quite often. People do romanticise the past but if you were a Russian who lived under B. N. Yeltsin in the 1990s, I can totally understand why the view of Brezhnev's rule as a "Golden Age" would become popular.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 21:41:55 GMT
The Ukraine whilst a flawed democracy was at least working towards becoming a democratic state. Sadly, the peoples of Russia have never known what it is like to live in a democratic country. The Russian people has certain traits which make it difficult to achieve democracy: - believe that they have an unique "Russian soul" (giving them the right to disregard any foreign criticism)
- tend to support their governments unconditionally - frivolous attitude to ideology (yesterday they were playing communism, today they are playing conservatism) - cynical or paranoid attitude to international affairs
There must be many Russians who are aware of these issue and working to overcome them, but there aren't enough to change Russia.
i disagree with you bluekumul. There is nothing inherent in the Russian people that makes it "difficult to achieve democracy". Many people have said in the past that Russia is an enigma. This is true. A European country, most of whose territory is in Asia. A country formed on the merging on Byzantine and Eastern Slavic civilisations. A country innately European but usually hostile to most other European countries. A Christian country that looks nostalgically on its atheistic past. Yes - it is a contradiction and an enigma. But Russian history is so complex it is wrong to blame it on the people. Remember that Russia was invaded more times it was invaded. The huge plain in the west of Russia makes it very vulnerable but also usually ends up helpful when the enemy gets bogged down in Winter and can't replenish its supply lines. Even though the latter happened in 1812 and 1941-1945, and Russia was saved, it still left millions of dead.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2023 5:47:52 GMT
As for conservatives looking nostalgically to the USSR, remember that Marxism was intended to be a working class ideology. The working class is or at least used to be quite conservative socially. Multiculturalism, feminism and gay rights started with intellectuals. I've read (in 2003?) an essay by Lenin bashing "free love". The year of my birth..... He did give an interview to Frau Zetkin in which he criticised free love. I had no idea about this essay though. With the exception of the evil of abortion, the USSR was very socially conservative in the later years. Things were different in the early years, but Stalin and his successors all supported socially conservative policies. Khrushchev moved towards a more liberal position, but at the height of his de-Stalinisation of Soviet society, he visited an exhibition of modern abstract art. Khrushchev had encouraged deviation from the Stalinist line, which supported only classical art styles and socialist realism. Seeing the modern art, Nikita Sergeyevich said: Don't you know how to paint? My grandson will paint it better! What is this? Are you men or damned pederasts!? How can you paint like that? Do you have a conscience? That's it, Belyutin, I'm telling you as the Chairman of the Council of Ministers: The Soviet people doesn't need all this. I'm telling you! Forbid! Prohibit everything! Stop this mess! I order! I say! And check everything! On the radio, on television, and in print, uproot all sympathisers of this!
|
|
|
Post by tth1 on Aug 20, 2023 15:44:39 GMT
The Ukraine whilst a flawed democracy was at least working towards becoming a democratic state. Sadly, the peoples of Russia have never known what it is like to live in a democratic country. The Russian people has certain traits which make it difficult to achieve democracy: - believe that they have an unique "Russian soul" (giving them the right to disregard any foreign criticism)
- tend to support their governments unconditionally - frivolous attitude to ideology (yesterday they were playing communism, today they are playing conservatism) - cynical or paranoid attitude to international affairs
There must be many Russians who are aware of these issue and working to overcome them, but there aren't enough to change Russia.
Part of the problem is that they have never experienced democracy. Therefore, they are bound to believe what they are constantly told. Like today they believe what they are told my state media. They have little or no access to any alternative. I do not think they support their governments unconditionally. However, if you lived under the conditions they live under they are not going to complain. Most of us want a quiet life, a place we can call home, enough food to stop us from starving, a guaranteed source of income and to bring up our children peacefully. It, therefore, takes a very brave person to stand against a totalitarian regime. Instead of the things most people want in life you face arrest or persecution, torture, an unfair trial and you may be improsoned for great lengths of time in appalling conditions, be executed or simply disappear. It is much easier to conform than not.
|
|
|
Post by tth1 on Aug 20, 2023 15:49:43 GMT
I do not think the Soviet era or any of its leaders are anything to be celebrated. It was a cruel and vicious regime that denied people their basic rights. I am perplexed that people would want to honour a man who led a regime that did the most terrible things to their country and of a country which is once again doing the most terrible things to them. The Ukraine whilst a flawed democracy was at least working towards becoming a democratic state. Sadly, the peoples of Russia have never known what it is like to live in a democratic country. It was a vicious regime. You are absolutely correct. The premise of it - Marxism-Leninism - was evil. It also existed for 74 years and necessarily there is more to it than meets the eye initially. Multiple generations were born and raised under this regime and it may seem astonishing to us in the West, but the late pre-Gorbachev Soviet period is even remembered in Russia by many over age 50 as a Golden Age. I encourage you to go to YouTube. Put in Леонид Брежнев (Leonid Brezhnev). Then scroll down to the comments section and translate the comments. I just did it on the first video that came up. Comments including "L.I. Brezhnev low bow for a happy childhood ...😢😢😢😢" ; "I was born in the era of BREZHNEV, in 1965, we lived perfectly, there was no social injustice!!! And when he died... we cried... I was 17 years old and I remember that sad day well..." "Dear Leonid Ilyich, we remember, love and thank you. Sleep well." ; "Eternal memory and Kingdom of Heaven to you Leonid Ilyich!" Do I agree with people who think Brezhnev was a great leader? No, I do not. But we have to understand - and I did not understand this for most of my life - that the Soviet experience as remembered by the Soviet people was completely different, quite often. People do romanticise the past but if you were a Russian who lived under B. N. Yeltsin in the 1990s, I can totally understand why the view of Brezhnev's rule as a "Golden Age" would become popular. I do not disagree with you. As you have said many people at the time had know nothing but the Soviet regime. They knew nothing different. If after Brezhnev's death life became more difficult for them they would remember the better times and long for them. However, while Brezhnev was in power the KGB still existed and if you did anything the state didn't like you sufferred the consequences, often appalling consequences. I do not think we could say Brezhnev's rule was good but we may be able to say it was better than Stalin's.
|
|
bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
|
Post by bluekumul on Aug 28, 2023 11:38:01 GMT
i disagree with you bluekumul. There is nothing inherent in the Russian people that makes it "difficult to achieve democracy". Running a democracy is a skill that must be learned. In this case, ways of living in a tyranny and adopting to it must be unlearned. What do you think about Russian democrats like Navalny or Nemtsov? Is it really that different from other nations? Britain has also emerged from mixing Roman, Celtic and Saxon cultures. Mexico has merged Spanish and Aztec (Nahuatl) heritage. India is a mixture of Indo-European invaders and little-known Indus valley civilization. As for conflicts, all countries have faced hostility from their neighbours.
|
|